The Lion.

No. 10. VOL. 2.] LONDON, Friday, Sept. 5, 1828. [PRICE 6d.

JOURNAL OF MR. CARLILE'S TOUR THROUGH THE COUNTRY.

(Continued from page 261.)

Nottingham, September 2, 1828. THE expected discussion between Mr. Gilbert and myself, has occupied no small part of the attention and conversation of this town. A meeting was to have taken place on Friday evening last; but report says, that the Mayor forbid it in the use of the Exchange Room for that purpose. Pursuant to the correspondence which was last week printed, as having passed between Mr. Gilbert and myself, two gentlemen, of the names of Rawson and Boothby, friends of Mr. Gilbert, and members of his congregation, called on me, on the 26th ult. to make arrangements. It was agreed, that the two subjects should occupy the two evenings of August 29, and September 3, in the Exchange Room. The Exchange Room is the property of the corporation, and the consent of two of the most respectable aldermen, Morley and Wilson, had been obtained. The Mayor, it is said, was from home. I found the propositions of Messrs. Rawson and Boothby so very fair, that I did not hesitate to leave it to them to draw up the articles, and to make all the necessary arrangements, as my being a stranger, in a great measure, precluded my interference. It was agreed, that a copy of the articles should be sent to me for my sanction. I waited somewhat impatiently for the copy of the articles until the morning of the 28th., and instead of then receiving it, there came again the same two gentlemen, bringing with them Mr. Thomas Bailey, the wine and spirit merchant, whom I had before occasionally met and conversed with. No articles had been prepared, and looking at all the circumstances, as they present Printed and Published by R. CARLILE, 62, Fleet Street.

No. 10.-Vol. 2.

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themselves to me on this Tuesday morning.* I cannot shrink from saying, that, at that interview, there was shown a disposition on the part of Mr. Gilbert and his friends altogether, to shuffle away the proposed discussion. Mr. Bailey expressed his disapprobation of it, and said, that Mr. Gilbert was placed in a most disadvantageous position (even after he had scrupulously chosen his own ground) in not knowing what I meant to defend. I explained, that I had no system to defend; but that I meant to assail Mr. Gilbert's system, which he at least ought to be prepared to defend. We then began to prepare the articles, and to my surprise, there was a proposition that Mr. Gilbert should occupy one hour in his first speech. This was strongly pressed as necessary, which I could not see to be so, for the purpose of fair discussion; but on the plea of the economy of time, it was reduced to forty minutes. The next difficulty started, by Mr. Bailey, was, that females should not be admitted. Against this outrageous exclusion, I protested for the space of near two hours, and the proposed discussion was on the point of being broken up on this ground, save that I had resolved they should not so easily get out of it; and I consented to the exclusion of females, on the condition only, that, without I did so consent, there could be no discussion. This difficulty removed, we agreed on and countersigned the following articles :

ARTICLES AGREED ON FOR THE DISCUSSION BETWEEN THE REV. MR. GILBERT AND RICHARD CARLILE.

1. There is an agreement on the questions or propositions for discussion, in the correspondence which has passed between the parties.

2. The moderator or chairman to be chosen at the time of meeting.

3. The place of meeting to be the Exchange Room, the time 6 P. M. For the first proposition on the 29th August; for the second on the 3rd September.

4. The time to be occupied at the first rising to be forty minutes for each; for two subsequent risings, twenty minutes each. The whole time of meeting not to exceed three hours.

5. Noisy applause and disapprobation to be discountenanced by the moderator.

6. There are to be no free admission tickets.

7, There shall be a reporter, and each party shall have a copy of his report.

8. Tickets for admission one shilling each.

9. That the magistrates be requested to allow the attendance of officers to keep the peace.

Snenton, Aug. 28, 1828.

THOS. BAILEY.

I had not then received Mr. Gilbert's answer to my letter of the 30th ult., which I should by right have had on Monday. The whole of this article is written in the spirit of that disappointment.

There was a very different disposition exhibited on the Thursday, to that which was exhibited by Messrs. Rawson and Boothby on the Tuesday. On the Tuesday, not one difficulty arose, and nothing could have passed more pleasantly than the preliminary arrangement. On the Thursday, there was a coldness, a diffidence, unpleasant or pretendedly unpleasant apprehensions, and a hunting up of difficulties: and, I confess, that I began to suspect the courage of my opponent or opponents, and said, repeatedly, from the Thursday noon to the Friday evening: "This proposed discussion will end in smoke. My opponents mean not to carry it on." From the Thursday noon, to my meeting with Mr. Bailey on Friday, at six o'clock, in the Market-place, I had not received the least official or authentic information, as to the interruption of our use of the Exchange Room; and from that time to this, my gentlemanly opponents seem to have lost their faculty of the use of good manners toward me. At the time that the discussion should have commenced, and as I was proceeding to find out the place where, Mr. Bailey came to me in the Market-place and stated, that the Mayor had, in spite of the allowance of the Aldermen in his absence, returned and forbidden the use of the Exchange Room: that an attempt had then been made to possess the Riding School for the discussion; but that the County Magistrates had interfered to frustrate it. Under such circumstances, had my opponents been sincere in their expressed intentions, it was but reasonable to expect, that they would have sheltered themselves where their authority is absolute, in their own chapel. I have pressed this point more than once; but there is an evasion; fair objection there can be none. Mr. Bailey told me that he had sent me a note of information as to what had passed, but it was at the last moment, just in time to say it is of no use to come out, there is to be no discussion. I had left the house before the note came, so that it was evident, when I presented myself to the assembled multitudes, that there was no shrinking from the discussion, on my part. I hope my opponents may yet give me reasons to say, that there has been no shrinking on their parts.

Finding myself surrounded by a large number of persons in the Market-place, I thought it prudent to draw them off to the park or fields, as opportunity might offer, to see if any discussion would arise, as a last arrangement, in the open air. I proceeded toward the park; but, on enquiry, learnt, that we could not assemble and act there, without the liability to an action against us on the part of the Duke of Newcastle for trespass; and I have never learnt any thing of the Duke, to put faith in his generosity. We proceeded to a field, which, at this Lammas season, is the common property of the Burgesses of Nottingham, and getting on a little elevation, I explained to the persons assembled, as far as I knew the particulars, the grounds of the interruption, not neglecting

to remind them, that there was still a last resort in Mr. Gilbert's chapel.

On leaving the field, a messenger came to me from Mr. John Kendal, a lace manufacturer, to say, that his well-enclosed yard, by the Leen Side, should be opened for the purpose of carrying on the discussion. Having seen Mr. Kendal in person, and received the offer from his lips, I sent off a messenger, a friend of mine, in conjunction with one from Mr. Kendal, to make the communication to Mr. Gilbert or his friends; but Mr. Gilbert was non est inventus; i. e. not to be found. An immense body of people waited in the neighbourhood of Mr. Kendal's factory by the Leen Side, until night approached, but there was nothing to be heard of Mr. Gilbert. This to me, was another proof that there was indisposition on the side of Mr. Gilbert to meet me, because he was seen in the park between the hours of six and seven, in company with Messrs. Rawson and Boothby; and I heard of a gentleman, if he may be so called, who could be so great a fool, on horseback, speaking to Mr. Gilbert, and requesting him not to meet me, but to leave me to sink in my own ignorance. Wonderful fellows! who can thus talk, and still be so much frightened about the operation of that ignorance! who so much dread the exposure of that ignorance! Mr. Cecil, a preacher of this town, in his last Sunday morning's prayer and sermon, alluded to the great darkness of infidelity, and prayed to have it removed; but I would beg leave to remind Mr. Cecil, that the light of religion is that which penetrates the head through a crack in the brain, and that I give evidence to the world that I possess more knowledge upon the subject of religion, than all the religious people in the country put together. The nonsense which these really poor creatures put forth from their pulpits, would be disgusting even to sickness were it worth a public analysis and criticism; but I have long looked on every religious house or place of worship, as a sort of lunatic asylum without restraint, where one diseased mind ministers to many, but in which there is never a cure. I can maintain the proposition, and will any where and before any person maintain it, that every religious person is a lunatic. But, I confess, that I see difficulties of immense magnitude, in the attempt to remove this lunacy, and to make mankind mentally sound, rational and truth-ful. The cure must be sought beyond the chapel, since no discussion is allowed there. It must be discussion, and not preaching that is to work the cure, and not the discussion of religious sect with religious sect, where the blind leads the blind, and the diseased contaminates the diseased; but that sort of discussion where, on one side, an offer is made to show, that the religious world is fundamentally wrong. How can we fetch out these lunatics to hear discussions? Every person on their side discourages the thing, and we know, that there are none so deaf

293 as they who will not hear. We can only say, that none fear discussion, but they who feel their weakness and want of truth.

As Mr. Kendal had behaved in so very handsome a manner, in so bold, so honest, so independent a way, in coming forward, bidding defiance to magisterial interference, and offering the use of his premises for the discussion, I sought his company in the evening, at the house of his brother, in Mount-street, the sign of the Sir Francis Burdett, and spent a pleasant evening, in unfolding my experience and principles to the company, as far as they were called for. There was no opposition, and I had the chief of the talking to myself.

On the Saturday morning, I reconnoitred the enemy, to use a hostile phrase in a friendly way, and sought information from Mr. Bailey, as to what was to be done. He expressed desire, that, since matters had gone so far, the discussion should go on; and that, on their side, they thought of renewing their application to the Mayor for a reconsideration of the case of allowing the Exchange Room to be used. I also heard, that Mr. Gilbert had said, in a bookseller's shop, that morning, that the discussion must go on somewhere. If not in your chapel, Mr. Gilbert, let it be in the open air, always the best place for large assemblies; and your master, Jesus Christ, is reported to have held almost all his discussions and disputations in the open air, in the streets, lanes, fields, and on the mounts, for which, Nottingham and its neighbourhood furnish more conveniences than Jerusalem could have done. Under this state of things, on Saturday, I addressed the following letter to the Mayor of Nottingham:

(Copy) New Snenton, August 30, 1828. Sir, I am anxious, in conjunction with the friends of the Reverend Joseph Gilbert, to impress upon your attention the assurance that nothing disreputable to the town or magistracy of Nottingham could have arisen from the purposed discussion in the Exchange room, and I would entreat your re-consideration of the case, offering myself to wait upon you, to explain the whole line of argument that I should have taken, and begging your acceptance of two numbers of my periodical publication, as an explanation of the preliminaries which have led to the wished for disI am, Sir, cussion. Respectfully,

Soar, Esq.

Mayor of Nottingham.

RICHARD CARLILE.

To this letter I have received the following answer:

Low Pavement, August 30, 1828.

The town clerk of Nottingham is directed by the Mayor, to return to Mr. Carlile his publications, and to add that Mr. Carlile need not trouble himself to wait upon the Mayor.

Mr. Carlile, Mr. Synyer's, New Snenton.