representatives of the people, the right hon. gent. must have fallen in consequence of the Walcheren expedition. But of that heard more, notwithstanding his first victory, if it were not for the case of Sir F. Burdett, which occurred so opportunely for the right hon. gent. Yes, the right hon. gent. availed himself with promptitude and alacrity of that lucky event. Lucky it was to him indeed-for he firmly believed that the right hon. gent. owed the tenure of his situation to Sir Francis Burdett [hear! hear!] Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench might cheer; but he was convinced that according to their own feelings Sir Francis Burdett was their best benefactor. In the plan proposed by his hon. friend, he maintained that there was nothing new-nothing which had not been recommended by many of the greatest men the history of this country could boast-among whom were the great Chatham and his illustrious son. His hon. friend proposed that system alone which accorded with the principle and practice of the constitution, and which had simply in view to render that House what it ought to be-a constitutional check upon the power of the crown, and a sparing dispenser of the money of the people. He would, therefore, support the motion; and he begged the House to consider the consequence of refusing even to enquire into the cause of all that evil which the people so loudly and so universally deprecated. advocate for reform. Early in life, and now still later in life, he was of opinion that some change in the representation of the people in that House must take place.expedition the right hon. gent. would have This he believed to be the opinion and the wish of all the thinking part of the community. He could assure the House, that he did not express this opinion from any look-out for popularity. No, popularity had of late fallen into such, hands, that it was really no object of ambition to his mind. It would, indeed, be vain for those who thought with him to start for popularity, in competition with the persons he alluded to. For he was persuaded, that those persons would always be sure to run before them. He had, indeed, no doubt that if he and his friends were to decide that all householders ought to have the right of voting, the persons referred to would demand universal suffrage, and that if all men were permitted to vote, these persons would call for the admission of the women; nay, more, that if the women were admitted, they would insist upon the addition of the children [a laugh, and hear! hear!]. These persons therefore, he could not expect to satisfy, but it was his wish to give satisfaction to the sober thinking part of the public, whose praise, although not so noisy, he must be naturally ambitious to deserve. Among such people he found the call for reform universal. Indeed, it was impossible to mix in any society without hearing that call repeated without hearing the evils arising out of the existing system of our représentation dilated upon-without in fact hearing the House of Commons spoken of with marked contempt. [Some murmurs] Gentlemen might murmur; but he stated his decided opinion of what he knew. He would, indeed, call upon any member of the House, whatever walk of society he entered, to state what he heard upon this subject. He did not say that that House deserved contempt, although many arguments might be drawn from its conduct particularly with regard to the Convention of Cintra and the Walcheren expedition, which appeared to account for the sentiment of the public. But the very circumstance of the right honourable gentleman opposite being the minister of the country, and supported by that House, was enough to deprive it of the public confidence. That support such a minister could not have if the House were properly constituted. In fact, if it were not for the cotch members, who could not be called Mr. W. Smuth was surprized that there could be a doubt entertained of the undue influence in the House. It was proved that the peers had the power of returning seventy members, and yet the House would pretend to be indignant if a peer attempted to influence a vote of a member or a proceeding of the House. This was absurd and disgraceful. Why did they not at once expunge every resolution denying the right of the peers to interfere, and if they must be mean, let them be at least consistent? The quotation from Mr. Mackintosh, by a right hon. member, (Mr.Canning,) was completely misrepresented. writer, in the passage alluded to, spoke of a tyrannical monarch and a slavish House of Peers, and concluded by saying, that a House of Commons justly chosen by the people, would easily master all tyranny in the people's cause. That Mr. Ponsonby declared his conviction that the abstaining of the House, during the last session, from punishing the undue influence exerted in elections by some of its members, was the stimulant that had so powerfully excited the popular discontent on the subject of representation. Adverting to the proposition of his honourable friend to strike off the burgage tenures, he observed, that he did not consider them so obnoxious as the small corporations, in which there existed more venality and less choice. Supposing, however, that they were equally bad, did it follow that the constitution would be subverted by their correction? These small corporations originated in the crown. The power of creating them had long lain dormant, but it might be re-exercised the next day. The crown could create, but it could not destroy. He did not see any thing in the proposition of his hon. friend which involved the fundamental principles of the constitution; there was nothing novel, nothing dangerous, nothing that could make the House of Commens so democratical as to overturn the other states. The only solid objection that he could imagine to his hon. friend's proposal was, that if the House once began to act in that way, it would be difficult to say where they would or should stop. He admitted that this was a consideration of great moment, and involving in it a danger from which this country had hitherto been exempt. Great Britain was the only free country in which the frame of the constitution had not been the object of political contest. In other free states these contests had been frequent. Hence in Rome the contest between the Plebeians, the Patricians, the Equestrian order, and the Tribunitiary power, by which at length the liberties of Rome were destroyed; the prevalence of the Tribunitiary power, and the letting in of the Albanian cities, making a way for the subsequent destruction of Roman freedom. But in this country there did not appear to him to be any such danger; for the crown had immense power, the House of Lords had great power, and therefore there was no apprehension that the democratic power, by a reform of the House of Commons, would become too preponderant. But, he would ask the House, did they run no risk by refusing all reform? What was the opinion of the sensible and reflecting part of the community on this subject? He had taken very great pains to ascertain it, and he was fully persuaded that they were far from being satisfied with the present state of the representation. Should the inquiry be entered into, and should it appear that the danger to be ap. prehended from any change was greater than the benefit to be expected, the people would be satisfied. For his part he could not see the danger. His hon. friend sought not to subvert, but to restore-not to improve by alteration, but to bring back the constitution of the House of Commons to its original principles. He was willing that the House on this momentous question, should act as a skilful navigator would act in an intricate navigation, who would not move without the lead and line in his hand. As to the details of any kind, he would not pledge himself to them; and for that very reason he would vote for the appointment of a committee. With the most perfect con-) viction on his mind that there never existed so good a constitution as the British, he was of course desirous to preserve all that was estimable, and to abolish only that which was confessedly bad; and above all he was anxious not to be supposed to countenance that which it was the fashion to call a radical reform. Mr. C. W. Wynn opposed the motion, on the ground that a reference of the subject to a committee would unsettle the mind of every man in the country. When once the work of alteration was commenced, it would be impossible to say how far it might go. He could by no means accede to the appointment of such a committee, without pledging himself to some specific plan, and this he felt to be impossible. Lord Porchester said, that he had listened attentively to all the reasons that had been urged on both sides. In his opinion there was but one motive that should induce the House to accede to the motion; namely, the pursuasion that such was the state of their organization that a repetition of the advantages which the country had heretofore derived from it could not be rationally expected. Now, although he admitted that there were many faults in the constitution of the House, he could by no means go to that length. Among all, who had spoken during the debate there were not two who agreed in their ideas of reform. If the House went into the de-, tail, they would soon find that they had not heard a tenth part of the varieties of opinion, which existed on the subject. Unless the House therefore wished to throw the country into confusion, they would not endanger that fabric which had been the pride and safeguard of the couns try. On the whole, he should give his decided negative to the motion, convinced that such a vague proposition could not save but might ruin the country; at the same time he admitted, that it should be considered how that system of venality which at present existed could be best subdued. Mr. Brand in reply said, he had not heard any arguments to prove that the House was, as he had asserted it not to be, the true representatives of the people. They did not stand as every man ought to stand, an independent and free agent, answerable to none but his constituents. He condemned the nomination of members by peers as more dangerous than the taking of premiums for seats. Whatever the fate of his motion might be on this occasion, he would feel it his duty to bring the subject forward again and again. There were indeed certain parts of the plan he had detailed to the House, which he meant to propose in distinct bills in the course of this sessions, if not too late-but if so, he pledged himself to submit these distinct propositions to the House early in the next sessions, and he had no doubt that their adoption would serve to raise that House in the estimation of the public. He had thought it incumbent on him to state what he thought would invigorate and revive the hopes of the people. An hon. gent. had called it an ill-contrived system, but he had never recommended any derogation from the established constitution. His object was to restore the ancient and constitutional rights of the people. The House then divided: For the motion, 115; Against it, 234;. Majority, 119. [FOREIGN TIMBER AND SHIPPING.] Mr. Rose moved the order of the day for the House resolving itself into a committee, to consider of the propriety of increasing the duties on the importation of foreign timber, &c. He then stated to the committee that the object to which he had to call the attention of the committee was of very great importance. It was that by adopting the policy of laying a heavy ad ditional duty on the timber imported from the North of Europe they might encourage the importation of that essential article. from our own colonies in North America. -The price of timber in the north of Europe had within these few years risen to an enormous extent; no less indeed than 300 per cent. Another disadvantage attending this trade was, that, in the present state of Europe, the timber was brought to us, not by British but by foreign ships, and, on a former evening an hon. gent. well acquainted with trade, on the subject of the marine insurance, had informed them, that not less than 10,000,000l. was paid, the same year, for the whole foreign freightage. This he considered as an alarming increase of foreign shipping, entirely subversive of our maritime system. He again then entreated the House to take into their serious consideration this new and growing evil, which, in his opinion, arose altogether out of the mercantile system, so much the favourite of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Of this system, so persevered in, Buonaparté might be taking the advantage, and, like Cromwell, who, by diverting the trade from the Dutch, became the carrier and first maritime power of Europe, he might be deluding our government, by pretending a total disregard to commerce, while, in fact, even in the midst of war, by our own connivance he was creating seamen to man his fleets against us. For he could, at any time, transfer to his service the men thus employed in a neutral trade, of powers immediately under his controul. If he exercised his genius, as he was well able to do in this way, he would be playing a deep game, and deluding us by taking advantage of our own ill-judged policy. and this to such a degree, that he believed | age of timber alone, to the extent of there was paid last year between 2 and 3 350,000 tons, this country had paid to fomillions to foreigners alone for the freight-reigners the sum of from 2 to 3,000,000%. age of timber imported, to the amount of 358,000 tons. He believed that one half of the timber necessary for our consumption might be procured from our own colonies in North America, which with the pines of Canada would nearly supply the whole, and even if it fell short of his expectations, the country would be compensated for the loss by other advantages. The system now in use encouraged not only the building of foreign ships, but the formation of foreign sailors, and by the measure he now had to propose, he trusted a change would be wrought, by which, instead of twice that number of seamen, trained for Denmark and Russia, to be employed against us by our enemies, about 15,000 would be created for ourselves. The measure would besides encourage our colonies. It would enable them to clear their grounds of timber, and induce the cultivation of flax, hemp, &c. for our importation. In return, the colonies would be enabled to take our manufactures, instead of our being obliged to send out for their timber, as we now did, our ships in ballast. The principle of his proposition was not new, it was as old as the days of Queen Anne. He adverted to an extraordinary and ill-judged assertion advanced by a noble lord (Cochrane) on a former night, that there was not timber Mr. Rose in reply, stated, that so far enough in Plymouth dock yard to build from encouraging foreign shipping, the one half of a seventy-four. He regretted Board of Trade never, in one instance, the noble lord could have been so hasty, and swerved from this principle; never to recommended him more caution in making permit a foreign ship to go where a British such unguarded assertions for the future. ship could be employed. The hon. gent. The timber now in Plymouth dock yard was talked of their being deluded; but how out of all proportion greater than that spe- was this? It was by the strong hand of cified by the noble lord. Upon all these Buonaparté, which procured the excluconsiderations, he trusted the Committee sion of British shipping from the ports of would concur with him in the Resolution, the north of Europe. The question then "To lay an additional duty on oak wain-was, whether, by accepting of neutral carscot, &c. imported under any shape from the north of Europe, and all timber not imported by the East India Company, or directly from our own colonies in North America." Sir W. Lemon said a few words in favour of the Resolution. riage, where no other could be used, they were to carry on an important trade? or, by rejecting this means, were to shut the door on their exports, and starve their manufacturers? It was a consolation to know, that, under all the disadvantages imposed by the enemy, our own shipping had increased in value. As a proof of this, he instanced a vessel, bought three years ago for 2,700l. now selling at 6,000l. Mr. Horner rose to call the earnest attention of the House, not so much to the present resolution, as to the alarming increase of foreign shipping in our trade Mr. D. Giddy considered it as a matter thus incidentally brought under their eye of general policy to encourage trade with on this occasion. The right hon. gent. our own colonies. The argument of Buohad stated, that, last year, for the freight-naparte's treading in the steps of Cromwell, was an additional reason for approving of the proposed measure. He had heard, | however, that the timber from North America was not adequate for our national purposes, and also that the quantity could not be so great as the right hon. gent. expected, or the uses of the country required. The Chancellor of the Exchequer rose to endeavour to dissipate the gloomy apprehensions expressed by the hon. gent. opposite, and those which his speech might have excited as to the contmercial state of the country. There were doubtless, a great many foreign ships employed in our trade to the various ports of the north of Europe, as it was impossible to carry on trade with those places in English ships. His right hon. friend therefore was desirous of obtaining a supply of timber from our own colonies, that foreign ships might not be so much encouraged. The hon. gent. opposite must therefore think the plan he proposed most wise, as it went to counteract that evil of which he had complained. If foreign ships had been much employed trading to the north of Europe, British vessels had been employed instead of others in the trade to South America and to the Spanish and Portuguese colonies, so that if there were an increase of foreign tonnage in one quarter, there was an increase of British tonnage in another. In 1807 the tonnage of British vessels coming inward amounted to 8,590 tons; in 1809 the amount was 10,173, having increased 1,583 tons. The tonnage of foreign ships employed in 1807 amounted to 3,702. In 1809 its amount was 4,682, having increased since 1807 by 980. Thus it appeared that there was an increase of the tonnage of foreign vessels employed in our trade of 980 tons, while the increase of British tonnage amounted to 1,583 tons. From this it must appear that all the advantage was not on the side of foreign vessels, but that the increase of their tonnage arose from the general increase of trade. The tonnage of the English vessels cleared out in 1807 was 8,924 tons, in 1809 it was 9,935, that of foreign vessels cleared out in the former year was 3,630, in the latter 4,370. Hence it would be obvious that the increase of the tonnage of foreign vessels was 740 tons, while that of the English vessels cleared out amounted to 1011, so that the increase of the trade carried on in English vessels was greater in proportion than the increase of that carried on by means of foreign shipping. Mr. Tremayne was apprehensive that the American timber was not fit for all the purposes to which this country would wish to apply her importations of that article, and we would therefore be at a loss for our necessary supplies, were a heavy duty, amounting to a prohibition, to be laid on that procured from the north of Europe. Mr. Baring objected to the system of trade favoured by ministers, as tending to prefer the northern neutrals, which were, in reality, our enemies, to the American shipping, in the trade to Norway and the Baltic. That trade might much better be carried on under the American flag; but for this really neutral power had been substituted pretended neutrals, who might be instantly converted into enemies, and we were consequently by this course enriching a part of the world it was least our interest to enrich. This was the great error of the present system the encou ragement of the northern powers instead of America. With regard to the measure itself, he feared our colonies would neither produce a sufficient quantity of timber, nor that of sufficient quality. It would, besides, give the western part of the kingdom an advantage over the eastern, as the former would be supplied from America, and the latter from the Baltic. It would also increase the price of a necessary article, already enormously high. The object was, however, a great one, and the experiment might perhaps deserve to be tried. Mr. Rose said, that government had ever been ready to encourage America, as far as she would allow them to favour her. The disposition was, and ever had been, the same. Mr. Parnell, from a clause in the barrack contracts, in Ireland, enforcing the use of Memel, in opposition to American timber, took it for granted, that the latter was of a very inferior quality. He must therefore be averse to a measure which would introduce it into all our public works. He also opposed the resolution, as interfering in an unjustifiable manner with the trade of the country, which ought always to be left free. The Resolution, and others consequent thereon, were then agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow. [EAST INDIA FINANCE.] Mr. Prendergast, in pursuance of his notice, rose to move for the production of a paper which would throw much light on the state of India Finance, but more especially on the |