mean to object, it appeared that the esti- | mate of the probable amount of the Stamp Duties imposed in 1808 had been erroneous, and that no more was borrowed on their eredit in the present year, than might have been added, upon a correct calculation of their produce, to the loan of 1808. It might therefore be not unfairly nor unreasonably argued, that it was justifiable so to apply a surplus of such a description; and that the country ought not to be subjected to additional burthens, particularly under present circumstances, on account of a miscalculation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But to that part of the plan, the intent of which was to derive a large proportion of the means of defraying the interest from duties imposed at former periods, or in other words, from the growing produce of the consolidated fund, he felt the strongest objections, founded upon principles which had never been disputed, and which hitherto had been strictly observed; and upon considerations peculiarly applicable to the present conjuncture. It was obvious to their lordships that a revenue so complicated as that of this country, could not but be liable to considerable fluctuations, both by diminution, and increase, in the various branches, and subdivisions, of which it was composed. former war, it was determined in 1803 to recur to it on a far more extensive scale. To this determination government and parliament were impelled not merely by an anxiety to protect from formidable depreciation the property of the public creditor, or to give to money transactions the facilities arising from a high state of public credit, but chiefly by that sense of their duty as guardian of the honour and interests of a great and high spirited people which convinced them of the necessity of proving to the aggressor and the world, that the hope of exhausting the resources of this country was vain, and fruitless; and that we were able and prepared to maintain the contest, as long as the causes existed. by which it had been occasioned. The system resorted to for this purpose was that of providing for the annual expenditure, without any considerable augmentation in the outset, and at no distant period, without any augmentation whatever of the public debt, or of the permanent taxes, and the means for carrying it into effect were war taxes to an unexampled amount, and the surplus of the consolidated fund; this system had not been departed from during the first four years of the present war; and it could be shewn, that the effect of it since the year 1803, had been to prevent an addition of The embarrassments to the public ser- near 300,000,000l. to the capital of the vice, and to public credit, would con- funded debt, and of near 12,000,000l. to sequently be frequent and alarming, unless the permanent taxes. A different policy the surplus produce of some duties was however now prevailed: in the preceding allowed to make good the deficiencies of year, a large proportion of the war taxes others: It should also be recollected that had been diverted from the service for it was only from the unappropriated part which they were intended, and applied to of the revenue that, without throwing the discharge of the interest of the loan; additional burthens upon the people, any and a similar misapplication was now proextraordinary charges could be provided posed, of a part of the surplus of the confor: Nor should it be forgotten, even solidated fund. He was ready to admit under present crcumstances, that it was that of the two measures, that of the prefrom this source that the means must be sent year was the least exceptionable; as sought, of defraying the expence of a it was not liable to the objection of conpeace establishment. These considera- verting temporary into permanent taxes, tions were by no means unimportant; but with the aggravation too that the temthe objections which he felt most forcibly,porary taxes, were of a description which and to which he was particularly desirous afforded no prospect of their continuing of calling the serious attention of their to be equally productive during a period lordships, were those which grew out of of peace. Both however were direct inthe nature of the present contest, and the fractions of the system adopted at the repolicy which it evidently demanded, a newal of the war; both diminished the policy which had been solemnly recog-income intended to defray the expence of nized, and till the preceding session invariably acted upon by parliament. The advantages arising from it having been experienced, towards the close of the it; and both materially retarded the approach to that point at which the further accumulation of debt, and the necessity of imposing additional taxes would cease; for he had ever thought, and should ever be prepared to contend that, in justice, and policy, such a necessity was only coinciding with the augmentation of debt; upon the cessation of which the interest of the sum annually redeemed ought to be applied to the discharge of the interest for the loan of each year. The financial measures of the year 1802 had been referred to elsewhere; but whilst he acknowledged the liberality with which the reference had been made, he wished to correct a mistake, with which he understood it to have been accompanied. It had been imagined, that the produce of the taxes then imposed, greatly exceeded the estimate: This however, was not the fact; it had indeed, greatly exceeded the charge; the amount of the latter having been 3,300,000l. and of the former near 5,000,000l.; but there had been no miscalculation; on the contrary, he had himself, at the time of proposing these taxes, stated his expectation of an excess of 1,500,000l. his object being, as he then said, not only to supply the interest of 97,000,000l. of stock created at that period, but to provide a large accession to the consolidated fund, towards defraying the expence of a peace establishment. The application of it to this purpose was unfortunately precluded by the early renewal of hostilities, but upon reasoning precisely similar to that upon which the present measure was defended he might on the credit of that excess (to which near 400,000l., were to be added in consequence of the new arrangement and consolidation of the excise duties,) have contracted in the years, 1803 and 1804(both years of war) for loans to a large amount without the imposition of any additional taxes. But instead of such a proceeding, he had left this unappropriated excess to be applied to its proper purpose; namely that of co-operating with the war taxes imposed in 1803 and 1804 (the annual produce of which had exceeded 13,000,000.)in confining the loan within narrow limits, and thus approximating to that state of credit and security, when the expences of the year might be defrayed without a farther accumulation of debt. The object however, had been unfortunately thrown at a greater distance, by the enormous increase of our expenditure, and by, the weak and improvident expedients, as he considered them, of the present, and the preceding year. He should be asked whether he would recommend the imposition of additional taxes; to which he would fearlessly re ply, yes, in preference to such measures as those to which his observations had been applied. But he was not satisfied, that such was the alternative; and that the present income was insufficient to sa tisfy all the necessary demands of the public service. That considerable retrenchments might be made without any actual diminution of our means of exertion would not, he was convinced, be seriously denied. Let then the experiment be made; let the "magnum vectigal parsimonia" be fairly and instantly resorted to; and the result would be to prove either that further burthens were not necessary, or if proved to be necessary, a disposition would be created to bear them without complaint. The resources of this country were great, its public spirit was high, and would be manifested by a cheerful acquiescence in fresh contributions, if it could be shewn that they were called for by a real exi gency; and of a confidence were excited that they would be applied with wisdom and economy, which however would not be the case, unless they tended to re-establish and to carry into effect the system which such measures as that under consideration were calculated to impair and subvert. Much had been said of late of abuses of a flagrant description. He lamented the delusion of some persons, and reprobated the malice of others, which led them to ascribe the pressure of the present moment, chiefly to such a cause. Wherever they were proved to exist, they should be exposed, and the authors of them consigned to punishment, and disgrace. But the dangers against which it was also peculiarly impor tant to guard, were profusion, and negligence, occasioned and encouraged in a great degree by the facility with which the resources of the country had beer called forth. It was therefore, necessary that there should be one hand only in the public purse; if there were many, even though all were clean, the purse would soon be emptied. Individuals, it was well known, might be brought to distress by servants not dishonest, as might a nation, by ministers not corrupt. Persons in the various departments of government were naturally auxious for the complete execution of the service committed to their charge, and the cost with which it was attended was with them not only secondary, but too often a disregarded object. This led to consequences which could safe, and rendered necessary by the circumstances of the times, which proved the growing increase of our trade and prosperity. only be averted by a presiding and paramount authority, which would compare, combine and controul, according to larger views and a more onerous responsibility.It was also necessary to adopt without delay an improved system of account; the issue of public money not only required additional checks, but it was necessary that the disbursement should in every instance be followed as closely as possible by the audit. This was essential for the sake of the public; it was also due to the upright accountant, who, in numerous instances, had been long kept in a state of torturing anxiety, and from the loss of documents, and the death of witnesses, had obtained at last an imperfect, and unsatisfactory acquittance; whilst in cases of profusion, negligence or fraud, delay was equally beneficial to the delinquent, and injuriousto the public. By such means confidence would be restored of which no minister was deserving, who did not make the correction of real abuses, and a determination to satify the necessary demands of the public service at the least possible charge, the primary and fundamental principles of his government. Let all well grounded causes of complaint, from the well disposed part of the community be removed, and in a country such as this there would be nothing to fear. But if the scale of our expence and the mode of providing for it should continue to be inconsistent with a just view of the present contest; if we persisted in adopting weak and delusive expedients, instead of resorting to timely and efficient retrenchment, and to a wise and provident system of financial policy, the irritation of the country would not be appeased, and the means of . upholding its honour, and of maintaining and extending its power, would infallibly be wasted and destroyed. He trusted however, that a different course would henceforth be pursued, that the urgent and indispensable duty of a vigilant, and scrupulous economy would be seriously felt, and strictly exercised; and that the present would be the last instance of deviation from a system, the benefical effects of which had been so abundantly experienced, and which ought to be regarded as the chief instrument of our triumphant deliverance from the difficulties, and dangers with which we were surrounded. The Earl of Harrowby entered into a va riety of arguments to shew that the financial measures of ministers were perfectly The Earl of Lauderdale contended, that the application of any part of the consolidated fund. surplus to other purposes, was contrary to the faith pledged to the public creditor. The Earl of Liverpool defended the financial system of ministers, displayed in strong colours the prosperous state of the country, admitted the necessity of every practicable species of economy, and said that little was to be expected from the pitiful description of savings that was now so much recommended by some persons. The Marquis of Lansdown observed, that nothing could be more necessary than to avoid even the imputation of a breach of faith with the public creditor. He would not say that the bill went quite so far, but it was undeniable that his security was diminished by it. He was sorry to find that the bill violated the two great principles upon which he and the administration of which he made a part, relied for our rising superior to the difficulties that surrounded us, namely, a steady adherence to the system of war taxation, or raising a great part of the supplies within the year, and the strict and undeviating application of the sinking fund. His lordship drew a strong contrast between the financial plan which he had the honour of proposing three years ago in the other House, and that pursued by the present administration. Though he had strong objections to the bill, he would not divide the House on it.-The bill was then committed. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Thursday, June 5. [ANNUAL REVENUE ACCOUNTS.] Sir T. Turton rose to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice on a former day, for a regular production, on the commencement of each session of parliament, of Accounts, shewing the expenditure of the grants of the preceding year, so far as the same could be made up, and to the production of which he hoped there would be no objection. He said the enormous taxes annually levied upon the people of England for the exigencies of the state, and which they bore with the greatest cheerfulness, under the persuasion that those burdens were indispensable to the ceding session. He was convinced it was owing to the neglect of the plan, that the House had been drawn into the expenditure of 100 millions at least more than they would have done had the plan recommended been then adopted. He was sure he could prove this, and he thought it was high time the House should interfere and put some stop to so prodigal an expenditure, as that which had so long been suffered to be pursued. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Rose opposed the motion on account of the impossibility there would be to comply with it. The accounts were every year laid before parliament, so far as they could be made out, and if any honourable occasions of the country, notwithstanding | the late disastrous failures of our continental expeditions, imposed a duty on the House to see that the produce of those taxes were applied with rigid economy to the purposes for which they were voted. The heads of public expenditure, to which he desired the House to look with vigilance, were those of the Army and Navy, by a due attention to which he was confident that hundreds of thousands of pounds might be annually saved. As to the expenditure under the head of Civil Offices, he had no fault to find with the payments made to those upon whom any public duty was imposed; for he was persuaded that, from the highest office down to that of the lowest exciseman, the pay-member thought there was any article ment was too small for the maintenance of the officers in proportion to their stations in life. The only alteration he would desire on this head was, that the high pay and emoluments should be diminished to those who held sinecure places doing nothing; and given to those who executed the public business. The precedents on which he grounded his motion,. he found on the records of the Irish parliament, where such an arrangement was justly-ADJOURNED DEBATE.] deemed necessary; and he concluded by moving a Resolution to the same effect. Mr. Foster said, that as the hon. baronet had taken for a precedent the practice of the Irish parliament, he thought it necessary to say a few words on the subject. It was the custom in that parliament to make up their accounts annually, and so far as in them lay they did so, but from September to January, and even February, it was found almost impossible to do so with any degree of accuracy; and if in that country, where things were carried on upon so small a scale, the difficulty was so great, what must it be in such very complex and multifarious accounts as those which were required in the various and numerous departments of this government? In fact, he was certain it would be impossible to comply with the tenor of the hon. baronet's Resolution, and he should therefore oppose it. Mr. P. Moore spoke in favour of the Resolution. He said the several reports of those committees of finance, of which the Speaker had been the chairman, all went to recommend the plan of the House refusing to grant a supply till an account was produced, so far as it could be made up, of the expenditure of the public money, granted by the House in the pre that was not sufficiently made out, he [PETITION RESPECTING LORD DURSLEY Mr. Whitbread addressed the House on the subject of the Petition presented by certain freeholders of Gloucester, respecting lord Dursley. He asked the hon. member who had presented it, whether he knew the freeholders who signed it, or any of them, how the petition came into his hands, and whether he intended to take any step upon it? Mr. Swan replied, that he knew none of the freeholders-that he had no particular connection with the county of Gloucester, and he believed that he had been applied to on that very account to present this petition; those more immediately connected with the county having refused to take it up, lest their conduct should be attributed to personal motives. He also stated, that he had apprised several members of the petition before it was presented that he had taken steps to apprise the family of it, and particularly that he had mentioned the circumstance to a noble lord, a near connection of the family, and asked him whether he had heard of it ?-To which the noble lord replied, that he had, and advised him not to present it. Mr. Serjeant Best, one of the most eminent men at the bar, had also read it, and said that it was not a petition that ought to be presented. When 1 be found that it did not come under the Grenville Act, he certainly was under considerable difficulty how to proceed. He had undertaken, however, to present it. He next adverted to what had fallen from the India Judge on the other side (sir John Anstruther), on a former night, who had entered into some sophistical reasonings, which he did not well understand, although he had collected the conclusion to be, that he ought not to have presented the petition. It would be remembered, however, that he had carefully stated that he did not consider himself answerable for the allegations contained in it, nor pledged to take any step upon it. In presenting it he conceived he had merely done his duty. Lord Dursley then rose and observed, that to prevent any possible misconstruction or misrepresentation of the few words he had to offer, he had committed them to paper. He then read from the paper, that he was authorised by his father, earl Berkeley, positively to assert that he was his eldest son and heir apparent. He might have avoided this by producing a landed qualification which he possessed; but he felt himself so strong on the title of his birth that he had not chosen to resort to it. He would not detain the House further from proceeding according to its discretion. His lordship then withdrew. Mr. Whitbread said, that he had himself presented petitions when other members refused, upon their being put into his hands by the parties. He asked, whether he was to understand that the petitioners, or any one of them, had given the petition into the hands of the hon. member who had presented it ? Mr. Swan replied, that the petition had been put into his hands by a freeholder, of extensive property in Gloucestershire, but not by any of those who had signed it. Mr. Kenrick thought it irregular to ask questions in this manner. quired of the members presenting petitions, that they should be able to say that they believed the signatures to be authentic; but it had not been the practice to require absolute certainty on that point, a practice which would have been attended with great inconvenience. God forbid, that the subjects of this country should be unable to have petitions presented, unless they came from the most distant parts of the kingdom to give it into the hands of members and prove their hand writing. Sir J. Anstruther adverted to what had been said of his sophistry, and observed, that the whole of the sophistry consisted in this, that he had desired the hon. member to state what steps he intended to take upon this petition. The hon. member had then replied, that he believed his course would be to move for a new writ. Did he now mean to say that he was ready to follow up this proceeding by moving for a new writ? Mr. Swan replied, that he had already stated that he did not know the freeholders who had signed the petition, and could not be responsible for the allegations. The question that the debate be resumed, was then put and carried.-Upon the question that the Petition lie on the table, Sir S. Romilly asked the hon. member whether he was at all prepared to support the allegations it contained? Mr. Swan replied, that he had so often answered that question, that he was surprized it should again be put to him. He had stated that he did not know those who had signed it, that he was not prepared to support the allegations. He had only done his duty in putting the House in possession of the Petition, and the House might deal with it as it thought proper. Sir S. Romilly then observed, that if the hon. member, or any other member had been prepared to support the allegations contained in the Petition, it would be proper that it should lie on the table; but if not, then he thought it ought not to be received. The allegation was, that a Mr. C. W. Wynn contended that it was perfectly regular to ask who had signed the petition, and whether the member pre-person sat in that House who was not a senting it knew the persons; otherwise, member; and was it fitting that such a the grossest frauds might be committed petition should remain on the table withupon the House. As the hon. member out any proceeding had upon it? The had confessed he did not know who they hon. member had said that the House were who had signed this petition, and might proceed upon it as it pleased; but that none of them had given it into his what could the House do? The House, he hands, he wished to have the Speaker's presumed, would not advertise for eviopinion, whether they could regularly pro-dence on the question; and, unless some ceed farther upon it. immediate step was to be taken upon it, he could not see how the Petition could The Speaker said that the House re |