He that the kirk of Scotland was founded on the rock of poverty, did he mean to say that the church of England was founded on the rock of wealth? Did he (lord Harrowby) mean to say, that the only way to support your religious establishment was by voting to it the public money! Did he mean to tell those who differed from it, that the strength and security of the Protestant religion lay in its accumulation of riches? If such was his opinion, he feared he would increase instead of diminishing the number of persons who dissented from it, and whom the noble earl, perhaps rather warmly, had designated as the foes to the church of England. Could it be tolerated, that because men differed in certain points of discipline, that therefore they were foes to the church. 、 It was unjust to make such aspersions-but it was consistent with the cry of No Popery. But he would tell the noble earl, that those Dissenters-those foes to the church, as he styled them, would continue to increase even from the number as taken from their 12,000 chapels, when they found that the advocates of the church establishment conceived that its best means of security was to be continually applying for public money. would venture to predict that, whether you voted six millions or sixty millions, whether you built churches or no churches, whether you calumniated Dissenters or otherwise, the number of communicants of the establishment would decrease, and that of Dissenters increase, as long as they saw the church of England made the engine of state policy, as long as they saw its prelates translated and preferred, not for their religious merits, but their slavish support to the minister of the day. For he would ask the noble earl fairly to answer, if he knew of no preferments in the higher ranks of the clergy conferred upon such pretensions? When he saw the bishops, according to the injunctions of their religion voting against wars, when he saw them voting for the liberties of the people, then he would pronounce that the church of England had no reason to fear. But, it was always the case for an establishment to decline, when the clergy drew their emoluments by compulsory means, The people had no interest in their support, although they had no objection to subscribe, and that liberally, for those religious instructors that were not so provided. There was a law in America, he much admired, it was a wise law and a curious one. If any man gave a VOL. XVII, bond to a priest, promising money for the discharge of his religious functions, it was declared void in a court of justice. The shrewd American argued thus: What are priests for? why, to make men honest. Then why did not the priest perform his duty towards the granter of the bond? If he had made the man honest, there would have been no occasion to apply to a court of justice. The condition of the bond was the very purpose of making the man honest, and if he did not perform that duty, the priest had completely failed in his promise, and therefore the bond was void. This is, my lords, most excellent logic. Lord Holland made a very animated reply, in which he maintained, that the increase of salary to the church establishment was no security of the increase of their followers; but rather of the reverse, that they would be less disposed to discharge the duty of their functions. Viscount Sidmouth observed, that in the new church structures, there ought to be a certain portion of the building allotted to the poor people, without any expence, The Earl of Harrowby spoke in expla nation. The Earl of Liverpool said a few words in favour of the grant. The Bill then passed through a Committee, and was reported without any amendment. HOUSE OF LORDS. Tuesday, June 19. [PLACES OF WORSHIP.] Viscount Sid mouth observed upon the great and increasing evil which arose from the want of a sufficient number of Places of Worship of the established church, and the want of means of accommodation for communicants of that church in populous parishes, in consequence of which many persons of the establishment were induced to attend Dissenting meeting houses, rather than not attend any place of worship.-The increase of meeting houses beyond that of places of worship of the established church, might be attributed to several causes, The former were erected for a less sum, and in addition, difficulties frequently occurred respecting the latter, relative to the right of presentation. A facility also arose in the former case from the Dissenting ministers having other occupations and therefore being satisfied with less for their services at the meeting 3D houses than could support a clergyman of the established church. It was therefore a subject deserving of serious consideration, and in order that the House might have information before them relative to it in the next session, his lordship moved an Address to his Majesty, praying that the archbishops and bishops might be directed to prepare in their respective dioceses, to be laid before the House next session, a statement of the number of Places of Worship of the Established Church in parishes, having a population of 1,000 and upwards, with the number of persons such places of worship are capable of containing and also the number of Dissenting Meeting Houses in such parishes. Lord Holland had no objection to the motion, but remarked upon the statement of his noble friend relative to the superior cheapness of Dissenting ministers, observing that the luxury of the established church had been found too dear for the inhabitants of Jamaica, who would not pay the amount considered necessary for its support in that island, with the view of giving religious instruction to the negroes. Viscount Sidmouth observed that there could not be considered any great luxury in the established church, when it appeared that out of 10,000 livings upwards of 4,000 were under 150l. per annum.-The motion was agreed to. [EAST INDIA COMPANY'S LOAN BILL.] The Earl of Liverpool moved the third reading of this bill. After the many discussions which had already taken place on the subject of the company's affairs, he should not now anticipate any argument which it might be intended to urge when the question of renewing the company's charter would come before their lordships next session. He should only advert to the causes which produced the necessity of the present application to parlament, on the part of the company. Among these, were a number of bills drawn on the company from China and other places, which came upon them before they could have any returns from their own possessions; to this he would add the loss which the company had sustained in shipping and valuable cargoes, which amounted very nearly to a million. It was besides but temporary relief to answer a temporary exigency, and he doubted not but the company had assets sufficient to answer every demand. The Earl of Lauderdale had more than doubts that the East India Company would ever be able to repay the public the money which the present bill proposed to lend to them. The noble secretary was far from being satisfactory on that point, For his part, after all that had been given the public to expect for several years back from the flourishing condition of the Company, he was persuaded that when their real condition came to be known, it would produce a greater disappointment than had been experienced from the delusive promises of the South Sea and Mississippi Companies. In conformity with the act of 1773, the company should not be allowed to increase their dividends beyond 6 per cent. They had, however, almost ever since been, in the habit of violating that act. The declining state of their finances might fair y have been inferred from the following fact: that the account of stock per computation, from 1800 to 1808, far from shewing any profits, exhibit in that short space of time a loss to the enormous amount of 12 millions. If such was the rapid decline of the finances of the company, how could it be reasonably expected they should ever be able to repay these loans? Nothing had of late appeared so reprehensible as the government of Madras, bath in its civil and military departments. Indeed, there were circumstances in both, of the most revolting and atrocious nature. One officer had been sent home and punished, for having signed a letter offensive to the government, while another, his superior in rank, who had acted similarly, passed off not only unpunished, but promoted and rewarded: a day would come for a more full and serious investigation of these matters. As to the bill itself, he should not oppose it, because he felt that the passing of it was necessary to prevent the most mischievous and melancholy consequences to the company's affairs at the present moment. The Earl of Harrowby would not now enter into the wide discussion of the finances of the company; he only rose to state, that the late conduct of the government of Madras, instead of deserving reprobation, was entitled to the highest praise. They displayed firmness and decision, at a moment when, without the seasonable exertion of these qualities, the most perilous state of things might have arisen. The Earl of Clancarty entered into a calculation to disprove the inferences drawn by the noble lord (Lauderdale) from the papers on the table. These accounts, so far from shewing that the company's affairs were in a desperate state, proved, on the contrary, that in time their resources would be abundant, and fully adequate to answer every demand. The bill was then read a third time and passed. HOUSE OF Lords. Wednesday, June 20. that he was the heir-male of lady Mar garet Ker, but he ought to have proved inore, that there was no such heir of lady Jane or lady Anne. The question, therefore, of the peerage, remained open for that strict proof which was always reqnired before a Committee of Privileges. Lord Melville contended for the construction, that heirs-male in the deed of 1048, meant heirs-male of the body. Lord Redesdale opposed the arguments of the noble earl (Lauderdale), and urged the necessity of that construction adopted by his noble and learned friend on the [ROXBURGH PEERAGE.] The Lord Chan-woolsack. "To the eldest daughter of cellor, in conformity to the principle of those resolutions which had been agreed to by the Committee of Privileges, made a similar motion to that passed by the House in the last session, whereby sir James Innes Ker is declared the nearest of kin, under the deed of 1648, and is put in possession of the estate. The Earl of Lauderdale read a written statement of his own opinion on this subject, which was at very great length. He disagreed entirely with the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, with respect to the construction he had put on the deed of 1048. The words in that deed used, granting the right of the estate to the eldest daughter of Harry lord Ker, without division, and their heirs male, provided she married a gentleman of honourable descent, did not mean that the estate should pass to the several daughters and their heirs-male of the body, lawfully begotten. He contended, that heirs-male should be construed generally, and insisted, that the cases of Hay . Hay, Bayley. Tennant, Cambell v. Cambell, and Paul v. Couts, instead of contradicting, universally supported this doctrine. However great and princely the possessions of the Roxburgh family might be, the consequence of so deciding upon the term "heirs-male," was of much more importance, as it regarded the tenure by which most of the estates and titles in Scotland were held. The Lord Chancellor supported the sentiments which he had delivered upon a former occasion. He next commented upon the state in which the Roxburghi estate would be placed. There was no doubt sir James Innes Ker had proved his propinquity sufficient to entitle him to the enjoyment of the estate, but he ought to have gone further in respect to the peerage; he ought not only to have shewn Harry lord Ker, without division," convinced him that the daughters, successivé ct seriatim, were meant, and that "heirsmale" by the context meant heirs-male of the body. The Earl of Lauderdale replied, and commented upon the noble and learned lord, (Redesdale,) who had ventured to deliver his opinion upon the law of this case, without knowing the law of Scotland, or having attended the pleadings of coun sel at the bar. The motion of the lord Chancellor was agreed to. The learned lord next submitted a motion, affirming most of the interlocutory judgments,but hoping that they would not be renewed for the decision of that House; which was also agreed to: [INSOLVENT DEBTORS BILL.] Lord Redesdale moved, That this bill be referred to a Committee; when he should propose certain amendments; after which, he should leave the future consideration of it to the next session. It was his intention to propose, that a commissioner, a barrister, be appointed the sole judge, and that his determination should be made a rule of that court, in which the debt was prosecuted. He recommended one, in preference to three commissioners. The Earl of Moira concurred in the sentiments of the noble and learned lord, and was only sorry the measure had not passed in the present session. If ever hope deferred was cruel, it was so to those who, under prosecution for debt, looked to the removal of this intolerable griev ance. Earl Stanhope applauded the principle of the bill, but thought three more eligible than one commissioner. He also thought the numerous cases of bankruptcy might likewise be referred to this tribunal. Lord Redesdalë maintained that one commissioner on many accounts would be preferable to three. The new court, to be erected for the decision of insolvents cases, he apprehended. would not have weight enough for the determination of important Bankrupt cases. Lord Holland praised the conduct of those who had brought forward the present measure, and regretted that political subjects should in some measure alienate the minds of noble lords from the consideration of such important laws and the interests of humanity. The bill passed through the Committee. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Wednesday, June 20. [ADDRESS AND DECLARATION FROM FIELD.] Mr. Wilberforce rose for the purpose of performing a duty, which notwithstanding his continued indisposition, he was proud to discharge. He held in his hand an Address from a very large body of his constituents, inhabitants of the town and vicinity of Sheffield. It was from the state of his health impossible for him to have been in his place, when a petition from that town was rejected. He had now only to observe, that he derived great pleasure from presenting an Address claiming such respect from the number and respectability of the persons whose names were affixed to it. with equal confidence, they rely on the House for that economy in the public expenditure which our most gracious and beloved sovereign, at the commencement of the present session, so strongly recommended, and of which they conceive the divisions on the late motions of Mr. Bankes to be an earnest. May the wisdom of the Most High direct all the councils of the House, that under the blessing of his providence, this happy country, which has so long flourished in wealth and free dom, may remain, as it now is, the glory and pride of Britons, and the envy of the world!" Mr. Wilberforce, in rising to move that it should lie on the table, took the opporSHEF-tunity of observing, that the House must feel the propriety of its course, when it called forth such concurrence from the public as was expressed in the Address just presented. The last petition, praying for reform from that town, had been rejected, and he felt much pleasure now in presenting one, which, he was convinced, was consonant to the feelings of the House, and had additional weight, from the respectability of those who signed it. He was happy to have the opportunity of presenting an Address couched in the terms and filled with the maxims of the old school. By reposing confidence in the House, they shewed their true wisdom, and their strong estimation of the constitutional principles by which it was directed. He took that opportunity to state to the House, that, when he gave his vote for the measure of reform, he was not the advocate or encourager of the wild measures so much cried up by others, and which were so long sustained, because they were impracticable. Had they appeared otherwise than impracticable to that House, they would no doubt have been long since adopted. He was for a moderate reform, such as would be compatible with the constitution, and correct the anomalies and errors which appeared in the present system of representation. He did not admire the mode of abuse into which some petitions to parliament upon the subject of reform had swelled; no good could possibly result from insulting openly the dignity of the House, and degrading it in the eyes of the public. He then entered into an eulogium upon the constitution, by which the finest species that ever existed of well-regulated liberty was established; those who felt this blessing, were grown familiar with its possession, and were from The Address was then read: setting forth, "That they feel themselves called upon, in consequence of an Address either about to be presented or now lying upon the table of the House, purporting to be "The Address and Petition of the freeholders and inhabitants of the town and neighbourhood of Sheffield," thus publicly to disavow any participation either directly or indirectly, in the formation of, or in assenting to, that Address; and that considering the House as representing the people of this kingdom, they rely upon their wisdom for the just exercise of those privileges which a committee of the House have declared to be such as they could trace back to the earliest period, and such as immemorial usage had confirmed; they trust therefore that the House will never concede them to any assumed authority whatsoever to the House they look forward with confidence for any system of reform which the inroads of time may have rendered necessary, or which may be compatible with the principles of our invaluable and ever to be envied constitusion, or the laws of this land; and that, habit insensible to the happiness which the vague praises of its original excelflowed from it. They were therefore in- lence. He preferred those practical.culoclined, from the restlessness of their dis-gies that took effectual care to preserve content, to underrate advantages of which this country had alone to boast. If the situation and constitution of England were compared with those of any other country, the difference would then be perceived; and when the burdens upon the people were complained of, it should be considered, that the country was labouring under a sixteen years' war, and the pressure of the taxes would be, in his opinion, satisfactorily accounted for, to a people who enjoyed more essential and substantial blessings than any other upon the face of the earth. He thought the House then on the point of breaking up, could fairly take a review of its conduct, and feel itself perfectly justified. In discussing the many popular objections now so prevalent, there was not one in his mind so replete with injurious consequences, as the unceasing endeavour to direct the public attention wholly to the blemishes of the constitution, thereby weaning the public mind from every consideration of the blessings which the people enjoyed under it. Mr. Hutchinson said, that however disposed he might have been to let the present motion pass without any observation, yet there were one or two passages in the speech by which it had been introduced, which he could not so readily suffer to go unnoticed. It had been too much the practice of those who pretended to an exclusive attachment for the constitution to call in question the motivés of the men who, in order to preserve that constitution, were anxious to abolish all the abuses that endangered it. He certainly could not impute to the hon. gent. the having made any direct charges of that sort, but the general tenor of his speech did appear to him to convey more than indirect insinuations to that effect. He would not follow the hon. gent. in the steps of his elaborate eulogy, but surely if the constitution was worthy of such high praise, it more particularly called for their preventing care; and without imputing motives to any set of men, he could not help thinking that they who were anxious to remove these blemishes which the innovations of time had introduced, gave as rational proofs of their loyal attachment to the constitution, as those who thought it enough to praise it. He, for his part, would rather witness the removal of those defects that had grown upon the constitution than listen to what they praised. Another point was. the right of petitioning; this was one of the most valued and unquestioned rights of the people. He feared that the conduct of the House that session had not been such as to shew their respect for that right. In examining petitions it had too much indulged in a minute and verbal criticism equally unworthy their dignity and their justice. He contended that so invaluable a right ought not to be defeated by sophistical cavils. The language of indignant complaint could not be expected to please the objects of it. That House, constituted as it then was, had been the subject of general complaint and distrust, and would, he feared, continue to be so till the wishes of the country were yielded to in a reform of its representation. On the subject of privilege he would say nothing more, than that he had always thought that the privileges of that House were only valuable in defence of the people's liberties; certainly that he conceived to be the object of their creation, and in that view he was sorry to be obliged to give it as his humble opinion that the exercise of their privileges during that session had been in certain instances hostile to the interests of the country. Mr. Calcraft observed, that after all the disagreements of the session, in which mi nisters were left in many minorities, it was impossible for him to subscribe to the inference, that they separated with that unity of sentiment which the hon. mover fancied to exist. He was assured that the real fact was, that the House during the session had done nothing to raise itself in the estimation of the public. He did however, hope that when it was again assembled it would feel the absolute necessity of taking the course recommended by the petition, namely, of considering the best means of an economical and parliamentary reformation. He hailed the admission of such grave authority as that of the hon. mover, when he pronounced himself a friend to reform. Mr. Wilberforce in explanation said, that he had not avowed himself a friend to parliamentary reform, only that he preferred for such consideration a season when the public mind was not sanguine in the pursuit, because then there was no danger of carrying the principle to a danger rous extreme. |