Mr. OLIVER. No, but I say that the government of Canada cannot send agents into Germany to promote immigration into Canada; they cannot do that in Switzerland and I am advised they cannot do it in either Norway or Sweden. That being the case, we are not carrying on the immigration effort in those countries, we would desire to carry on. The North Atlantic Trading Company was in a position to carry on immigration work in those countries and this government was not in a position to be held to account for what they did. Mr. OSLER. Was there not a provision in the contract that the incorporators should not in anv shape or way do anything unlawful in promoting immigration where there was a restriction? The only inference from the minister's words is that the government deliberately entered into a contract with responsible people on the face of it, to do what was absolutely illegal for the government to do in regard to a friendly nation. Mr. OLIVER. If that is the inference to be drawn from my remarks I can only be that say I did not wish that inference to drawn. If I may explain a little further I think my hon. friend will agree that inference is not warranted. While I am not acquainted with the personnel of the North Atlantic Trading Company, my understanding of the matter is that it was an association of what are called booking agents, operating in the European countries which I have mentioned. A booking agent in Europe works under a license, he is licensed to sell transportation. He sells transportation for such lines as he can secure agencies for. He gives bonds to the government of the country in which he operates which ensure that that country shall have due supervision over his operations. Inasmuch as his business is to sell transportation and is authorized and licensed to do so, it is within his power, without contravening the law of the country in any degree, to say to the man who comes to buy a steamship ticket to take him across the ocean: You ought to go to Canada rather than to the Argentine or to Brazil or to some other country. I hope I have made my point clear that the agreement with the North Atlantic Trading Company was not an agreement in contravention of the laws of the countries in which that company operated but it was an agreement with people who were licensed by the laws of those countries to carry on the business of selling transportation and by that agreement we enlisted their services on behalf of Canada as against other countries to which they were also authorized to sell transportation. Mr. MACDONELL. Then how was it that Mr. Smart, in giving evidence said that if the names of the persons composing that company were known, a large number of suicides would be committed. to Mr. OLIVER. I am not responsible, of course, for what Mr. Smart said, and I am not responsible for my hon. friend's understanding of what he said. I am rather inclined think there must have been some misunderstanding on his part. It must be clear, however, that in a country where the laws are absolutely restrictive against immigration, but where it booking agencies are licensed, while might not be against the law for booka bonus from one ing agents to take country it country, as against another might be against the administration or the policy and might put these booking agents at a disadvantage in their country; and it was to protect them against that feature of the case that it was desirshould not be able that their names divulged. That is my understanding of the case, a perfectly fair and legitimate understanding. It is, I firmly believe, according to the facts; and all the ideas which our hon. friends have built up around this than question have no more foundation the idea that the government dared not cancel the contract. Own Mr. HUGHES. Is the minister aware that these booking agents have an organization and have an arrangement with the steamships sailing to the various parts of the world from these European ports by which a certain proportion of immigrants are allotted to each steamer and that the payment of the bonus by Canada would have no influence on the proportion of immigrants sent to Canada by these agents? Mr. OLIVER. No, I am not aware of that fact, and I would be rather inclined to doubt it. I know there is what is practically a steamship combine. I do not know what the arrangements are in regard to that, but I do know that since the cancellation of the North Atlantic Trading Company agreement, immigration from the especially desirable countries I have mentioned has unquestionably fallen off, but I cannot say more than that on that point. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. I thought the minister said it had fallen off before and that that was the reason he cancelled it. Mr. OLIVER. My reference in that particular was to Norway and Sweden in regard to the immigration from which countries we paid a special grant of $5,000. I am speaking now of Germany and Switzerland, two other countries with much larger population and nearer to immigration effort, and I say in regard to these countries, Germany and Switzerland, the immigration 13. And exact statement of any amounts paid by the Trust for purchase or lease of any property outside of the city of Montreal and in defraying the travelling or displacement or maintenance expenses of the trustees or their officials generally. He said: This is a motion which has been made very often since this government has been in power and no objection has been taken to its adoption. It is the only means which the people of the city of Montreal and of the Island of Montreal have to obtain a statement of the affairs of the Montreal Turnpike Trust. That body is governed by an old statute which puts upon it no obligations to give the people the result of its operations. It handles thousands of dollars yearly and the public have no other means than by such a motion as this to obtain information as to what becomes of that money. The statements which this House has obtained from time to time clearly demonstrated that the affairs of the Montreal Turnpike Trust were not being administered in the interest of the taxpayers and the road users of the Island of Montreal, and in February, 1908, I moved in this House for an inquiry under chapter 104, revised statutes of Canada, to ascertain the position of our claim as sole bond-holders of the debentures of the Montreal Turnpike Trust. Upon that motion the Prime Minister said: My hon. friend by long experience knows that where he is right he can always expect the government to accede to anything he wants, and on this occasion we think he is right and therefore we accept his motion. The motion for inquiry was adopted, but I regret to say that in the intervening almost two years, the government has not put the resolution of the House into execution and we have had no inquiry, that is a matter for very much regret. However, the Quebec government, aroused by the public opinion in the municipalities concerned and by the statements which were from year to year obtained as a result of this motion regarding the financial position of the trust, instituted a royal commission to inquire into the affairs of that body. The federal government not having instituted an inquiry on its own account I trust they will see that our interests as bond-holders to the extent of nearly $270,000 will be protected by our having a representative at the inquiry in Montreal, if it is ever held. Motion agreed to. POST OFFICES IN MONTREAL AND VICINITY. Mr. F. D. MONK (Jacques moved: of Montreal, and of all proposals and suggestions made to the government by the post office authorities at Montreal for the establishment, in a systematic way, of postal branches and substations in said city and suburbs? He said: The object of this motion is to place in the possession of the House a report which was made some years ago by the postal authorities, showing where within the limits of the city of Montreal and the adjoining municipalities it was intended to erect postal substations and branch post offices. That report together with a plan accompanying it was laid upon the table, and it seemed to commend itself to those interested as being the result of a careful examination of the postal needs of the locality. The question of having branch post offices in the city of Montreal and the suburban municipalities is very often raised, and I think it would be very advantageous for the members interested to have that report and plan before them so as to enable them to answer the inquiries that are made. Motion agreed to. CANADIAN ATTACHE AT WASHINGTON. Mr. E. N. LEWIS (West Huron) moved: advisable that a petition be sent That, in the opinion of this House, it is to His Majesty's government, praying that a Canadian Attaché be appointed to the British Embassy at Washington, with a view to providing a direct medium whereby the government of Canada may advise with the British Ambassador at Washington in respect to matters pertaining to international relations affecting solely the Dominion of Canada and the United States. one He said: Mr. Speaker, since I gave notice of this resolution it has been said to me that if I kept on much longer I would be a separatist. In justice to myself I may say that I am the grandson of of those men who followed the flag in 1776 to Canada, and I take second place to no man in this House or out of it in loyalty to that flag. I am a great believer in the couplet of that English poet who wrote in reference to Canada: Daughter am I in my mother's house, manner And, Sir, the question I raise now is not a matter of loyalty; it is a matter purely of business relations with our nearest great trade competitor. I submit, Sir, that the in which our business arrangements are now carried on are altogether too round-about and that Cartier) we should have some one at Washington, not to conduct our business relations altogether but to advise the British Ambassador with regard to them. I have in support of this proposal the President of the United States who has said that For a copy of the report, plans and correspondence in the hands of the government regarding the construction of branch post offices and postal substations in and around the city it and Galicians coming into Edmonton district and had afterwards been found guilty of stealing from these people and condemned under the law to serve a sentence of years, was allowed out before that term expired and was utilized by my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver) as his forerunner, as it were, among the Galicians, to round them up and get them to vote for himself and his candidates. He knows that that is true. I refer to the case of Wagner commit suicide if their names were known, had their agreement cancelled and went out of business, therefore his department could not carry on successfully an immigration policy in northern Europe. He must think that this country offers no attraction to immigrants except the inducements put before them by the North Atlantic Trading Company; he must think that western Canada is played out. That country offers the same advantages to-day that it ever did, and is not dependent and never was dependent upon the advertisement of the North Atlantic Trading Company. Mr. OLIVER. I do not wish to interupt the hon. member (Mr. Campbell), but, as he says that I know this to be true, I must give an answer, and the only answer I Now, with regard to the Ruthenians who can give is that I know that it is not true. are largely responsible for the presence of the Minister of the Interior in this House, Mr. CAMPBELL. I thought the hon. and who are found in large numbers in my gentleman knew what was going on in his constituency, I would like, if I had time, to constituency when it came to election time. read to this House the opinions expressed But I am quite satisfied to accept his state- of them by the present Minister of the Inment that he did not know what was going terior before he took charge of that office. on and what is well known to every man When they first began to come into this in the part of the country from which he country he looked upon them from a very comes. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver) different standpoint to the one he holds toas it were, clapped the Minister of Finance day. He said that when the Ruthenians on the back because the immigration policy came into a country to settle, they were a has been conducive to the settlement of the detriment to the country from all points of northwest. He knows, away down in his view, that their presence depreciated the heart, that the only reason why the north- value of the lands, that other people did west has settled up in the way it has done not like to procure homesteads in their is the fertility of its soil. The immigrants neighbourhood. Now, Sir, I want to tell the who drifted in for one reason or another minister that I have many of these Ruwere so successful in that country that they thenians as my neighbours. I am only a wrote to their friends in the south and western farmer myself, and my nearest elsewhere, and told them what could be neighbours are Galician farmers, and they accomplished in the northwest, and their are as good settlers as any other settlers friends came up and helped to fill the coun- that come into our country. They mostly try. That is the only reason that the coun- belonged to the peasant class in Galicia, try is filling up at its present rapid rate. and excellent farmers they make too. The The hon. gentleman also said in his re- trouble with regard to the immigration polmarks--it was rather difficult to follow him icy of the department, as administered by because, as I say, he wandered from Dan the Minister of the Interior and his offito Beersheba-that the Conservative party cials, is that they have not paid sufficient pretended that the government did not attention to the kind of Galicians they have dare to make any change in the contract or brought out. They have brought out men to abrogate it in its entirety. I think that who, in their own towns at home, were statement was made before the present mere loafers, and were already a detriment Minister of the Interior took charge of the to the towns where they lived in Galicia. department. The hon. gentleman also said For that reason perhaps some of the undethat owing to the abrogation of the arrange- sirable ones have given a bad name to the ment with the North Atlantic Trading Com- Galicians who have settled in the neighpany, immigration from Northern Europe bourhood of towns like Winnipeg. But I had nearly or entirely ceased, and that they am able to bear testimony to the fact that were no longer able to get immigrants from in my neighbourhood the Galician farmers Norway, Sweden and other countries in nor- have proved to be a splendid class of setthern Europe. I think that is a very poor tlers. Although they were put upon lands argument. Those people from northern that were practically unfit for any man to Europe, he knows very well, and I know live on, bush lands, lands that were stony very well, are the best class of settlers we and undrained, yet they have, by their incan get, outside of our Own Can- dustry, developed those lands and have adians, and the Canadians who have shown that even under disadvantageous gone into the United States. Surely, Sir, the Minister of the Interior is making a very lame excuse when he tells us that because a company formed, according to Mr. Smart, of men who would' conditions, they are a hardy and industrious class of people, and are prospering as well as any other class of people in that country. They are inter-marrying with the Canadian people, and in a couple of genera tions from now, I have no doubt that their children will become thorough Canadians, and no man will be able to tell, on meet ing them, that they were not of British or Canadian ancestry. I have only to say in conclusion that since the Minister of the Interior has spoken in favour of this North Atlantic Trading Company, it is up to him surely to tell this House who were the members of that company. The company claimed approximately an amount of $31,000 only, and after some discussion a sum of $36,950 was agreed upon. That was an opportune time for securing a receipt in full. Then the hon. Minister of Justice stated a moment ago that conscientiously he was satisfied that the company had no fair claim to make on the government, notwithstanding which he grants a fiat. On occasions such as this the minister is acting in a judicial capacity, and if he is satisfied that the party apply ing for a petition of right is not entitled to such a privilege, he should not grant the fiat. Lastly, the outcome of it all is that the government is now being sued for an amount of over $71,000 by a company unknown to him for the time being and possibly for all time. lieves, but will admit that this was one of the greatest rascalities that was ever committed by any government. The Minister of the Interior tells this House. now that he does not yet know who the gentlemen An hon. MEMBER. Men. Mr. J. D. REID. Yes, the men were who composed this company. Yet he is doing business and going into this suit with Mr. W. B. NANTEL (Terrebonne) these men although he does not know who (Translation). Mr. Speaker, three con- he is dealing with. Can any person beclusions of some importance are the unlieve that the Deputy Minister of the Inavoidable outcome of this discussion. In terior (Mr. Smart), who was occupying a the first place, I think that if the hon. good position, and who went over and made Minister of the Interior had played the these arrangements on the other side, and part of a busines man he would certainly then resigned and took the management have settled that claim and secured a reof that concern, was not one of the comceipt in full when paying over to the com- pany, and was not interested in it Can pany that amount of $36,950. A mere any man in this country believe that there country dealer under similar circumstances were not others in Canada also connected would have thought of protecting himself with this corporation? I do not believe against any future action of the company there is a man in Canada who does not bein that connection and secured a receipt lieve that in some way directly, or inin full, instead of the ordinary receipt. directly, men connected with the civil serreceived benefits from this great piece of vice or the government were interested and rascality which the Minister of the Interior did not hesitate to stand up and defend. Every man believed that a good, righteous, honourable gentleman like the Minister of would immediately try to remedy it. But the Interior, when he saw any rascality, right in his own department a man named Philip Wagner is convicted and sent to jail and immediately when he gets out the min for robbing immigrants in the Northwest, ister gives him a higher salary and a better position. Is there any justification for the minister doing a thing like that? He was one of the members who complained about giving away lands in the Northwest, yet, immediately he comes into the department he is willing to give away 250,000 acres for a dollar an acre when it proved that these lands were worth $3 an acre and up. It is strange how the gentleman that we believed was the angel of the Liberal party could be converted so soon immediately upon occupying a seat on the ministerial benches. When I saw that contract and when I found out the way the government allowed the payments to be made it appeared to me that there was something wrong in the deal at this end. Instead of counting the immigrants they simply took the ship's register, and perhaps counted the crew, for all we know. They counted the number of people on board and paid $5 per head for all that came in that way. First-class passengers, second-class passengers and all were counted as immigrants and $5 per head was paid. I am awfully sorry to see good men like the Minister of the Interior getting into a mix-up like this. I would like to have seen the Mr. J. D. REID. I am greatly surprised that the hon. Minister of the Interior (Mr. Oliver) is defending the rascalities that have been going on in the Department of the Interior. We older members of the House will remember a time when the present Minister of the Interior occupied a seat at the back of the ministry, and when he was held up as the angel of the Liberal party He was for ever finding fault with what the government were doing and we all believed that there was no man in the Liberal party who was more anxious to remedy the rascalities that were going on in the government. At that time, as my hon. friend from Victoria and Haliburton (Mr. Hughes) says, he claimed he was an independent, but, strange to say, the minute he appeared on the ministerial benches he changed his tune. There is not a man in this House, on either side, if he will stand up and tell us what he conscientiously be was minister continue to be the angel of the Liberal party, but I am afraid he will get down to the foot of the list, and he will find it hard work to get up to the top again unless he changes his ways. I think he will probably find before the session goes by, while he is administering the department, that some little things will appear, and I would suggest for his own good and for the good of the country that he would try and turn over a new leaf and get back to the same good upright ways that he followed while he was sitting in the back seat and when he was recognized as the angel of the Liberal party. Mr. MONK. Just one word before the motion is adopted. I am beginning to think there is some foundation in the accusation of my hon. friend from Leeds and Grenville (Mr. Reid) that the Minister of the Interior is backsliding. It would have been better for my hon. friend the Minister of the Interior, instead of talking about immigration in general, to have gone to the very heart of this question and to have told us under what circumstances this final payment of $36,950 was made. I agree with what my hon. friend from Terrebonne (Mr. Nantel) has said as to the secret of the trouble which has come upon us to-day. The contract ceased its operation exactly on the 30th November, 1907. Why, after the Minister of the Interior had stated positively in this House that the only balance to readjust was one of $31,804.18 claimed by this company, did he, in the month of December of the year following, pay that $36,950, nearly $5,000 more than, according to the records of this House, they actually claimed? Why was this payment made? Who was it made to? Was it to Mr. Preston or was it to Mr. Smart? Was that amount, exceeding by nearly $5,000 the amount claimed, paid in London or in Montreal? Why, as my hon. friend from Terrebonne has said, should the minister make that final payment after the close of a contract which he had declared bad and which had given rise to endless discussion in this House and before the country without guarding against what has come to us since? Not one word upon any of these points has the Minister of the Interior said to-day when he should actually have brought down and put upon the table of the House the receipt which closed our relations with the company and explained to us why he was deceived at that time? I think that the Minister of Justice and the Minister of the Interior are wrong when they say that this is a trifling matter. It is not a trifling matter to have paid nearly $400,000 to these unknown people; nor, is it a trifling matter that we should be sued for a sum far exceeding any of the individual payments we made to that company. I will add this: That it is a mat ter upon which you cannot refresh the memory of the people too much, that at a given moment when members of this House desired to know the names of the contractors to whom we were paying this money, the government and the Liberal party were opposed to what I consider to be one of the fundamental principles which should govern the representatives of the people in this House. Motion agreed to. MONTREAL TURNPIKE TRUST. Mr. F. D. MONK (Jacques Cartier) moved: debtedness to the Dominion government of For a return showing: 1. The present inthe Montreal Turnpike Trust (a) on capital account, (b) for arrears of interest. 2. The amount collected at each toll gate belonging to the said Turnpike Trust during the year ending December 31, 1908, and for the first six months of the year 1909. 3. The names of all parties who have commuted their tolls during each of the two the commutation money paid to the Trust in above-mentioned periods and the amount of each case. 4. The amount expended on each section or road division under the control of said Trust, during the year ending December 31, 1908, and the contracts given out during the said year, with the name of the contractor and the date and amount of money involved in each case; and a statement in each case also as to whether the contract was awarded after tender called through newspapers." 5. The amount paid out during the said two first above-mentioned periods at each toll gate for salaries of day and night guardians and any other expenditures at each of the tollgates maintained. 6. The names of all parties holding passes for free use of the roads under control of said Trust during the period above-mentioned, with a statement, in each case, of the reason why the pass was so granted. 7. The expenses of the said Trust during each of the two periods above-mentioned for rent, salaries of the office, inside or outside service, giving name and remuneration of each official and amounts paid to anv civil engineer employed by the Trust. 8. The actual present indebtedness in detail of said Trust outside of its bonds due to the government of Canada. 9. The amounts collected by said Trust during the above-mentioned periods from municipalities under special agreements made as to their share pro rata of the bonded indebtedness of the Turnpike Trust. 10. The names of all members of the Trust elected to represent the bondholders with date of election in each case, during said two periods. 11. The amounts paid by the Trust to any of its members or officials during said two periods, whether as travelling or personal expenses, or indemnity for attendance or for any other reason whatever. 12. The name of any auditor who has acted during said two periods, and the amount paid such auditor. |