1957 JANUARY 14, 1910 average. I believe the Hudson Bay Company have ceased to insure their vessels, deeming the route so safe as not to call for it. Hudson bay is less subject to storms than the Mr. C. N. Bell, of the city of Winnipeg, gave the following evidence: It is found on investigation that fully 750 vessels have passed through Hudson strait, and this does not cover, it is known, the The list includes British whole number. troop ships, emigrant ships, war vessels of the English and French (some of them carrying 74 guns), as well as ships bound on voyAs ages of discovery, trade and whaling. early as 1619, Capt. John Munck was sent by the King of Denmark, and he wintered at Churchill, a brass gun of his being taken out of the river some time about the date of the appearance of Fox in that harbour. Dr. Bell obtained from the company's offices in London, a record, which, printed in his report, shows the date of arriving and sailing of their vessels at York Factory for 93 years, and at Moose Factory for 147 years. These lists show that in some years several vessels were sent in charge of British men-ofwar, and there has been almost every year during the past two centuries, ships of various classes and sizes navigating the strait without loss, and it seems almost incredible that such a number of voyages could be made, extending over 274 years, without the loss of over one, or as is claimed by some writers, It is but a two small sailing vessels. comparatively short time since it was claimed that it would be impossible to navigate the St. Lawrence with steamships, and, indeed, several steamers were lost in proving that it would be possible for an immense fleet to pass up to Montreal during each summer. The lower St. Lawrence (notwithstanding its comparative narrowness) is partly open even in the middle of winter. But the difficulty, as in the case of Hudson bay, is the apparent impossibility of getting into harbours. Harbours such as Churchill or York on Hudson bay, would have the advantage over Quebec or Montreal of connecting directly with the open sea, and hence in autumn vessels would not be liable to be frozen in, as occasionally happens in the St. Lawrence, as for example in the autumn of 1880, also in the autumn of 1870, when the outward bound shipping got frozen in below Quebec, occasioning a loss, it was said, of over a million dollars. Mr. C. S. Drummond, a financial agent and a man who was connected with the early project of building the Hudson's Bay railway, gave the following evidence: An interested in the carrying out of the Hudson Bay railway scheme, and during the time I was in England in January last I conI also met in versed with many persons in Liverpool and London as to the project. London some gentlemen from Berlin and conThe opinion of all with whom 1 conversed was that the straits and versed with them. bay were navigable for powerful steamers the whole year round, except perhaps durand even then they supposed the navigaing the period from the 15th May to 15th July, tion to be difficult, but not impossible. There is a strong syndicate formed in Liverpool in which are some of the largest steamocean route between vessels for opening an ship companies who are willing to furnish the ports on Hudson bay and Liverpool, on the assurance to them that a railway will be They have gone into the question built. very thoroughly, having had at their command the latest charts, log books, and information respecting the navigation of the northern seas, and have also obtained valuable information from the Département des Cartes de la Marine et Colonies.' The very into this scheme at their own risk after havfact of this syndicate being prepared to enter ing obtained such full information, proves the practicability of the route. James Ward was in the employ of the gave the following evidence: company for a number of years and he I am surprised how people can doubt the navigation of the straits or bay on account of ice. Not one man that has come over that route but believes in its practicability. Mansfield island will be a good place for a lighthouse station. There is a little lake of good water on that island. I have here the report brought in by the The Hon. Mr. committee who were appointed by the local legislature of Manitoba. Brown was chairman and this is the report he gave: Many of the gentlemen examined have had personal and extended experience as officers and servants of the Hudson Bay Company at their posts on Hudson and Ungava bays and the rivers entering into those bays. No evidence has been given that goes to prove that the Hudson straits and bay proper ever freeze over, or that the ice met within those waters is sufficient to prevent navigation at any time of the year. That consequently the period of navigation is defined by the time during which the ports, harbours, or roadsteads on the shores of the bay can be entered by vessels of a suitable description for such navigation. That, from the evidence adduced, it appears that such ports or harbours are open on an average, from 4 to 5 months in each year to ordinary vessels. That Hudson bay and straits appear, from all the evidence taken, to be singularly free from obstruction to navigation in the shape of shoals or reefs; and, during the period of out and wish to open water, from storms or fogs. This is the evidence given before the committee and these are the conclusions that these hon. gentlemen came to at that time. But I have still another very important piece of evidence from which I wish to quote. I quote now from a book issued by the Minister of the Interior, Canada's Fertile Northland.' The evidence which I now quote was given by Dr. Bell, on March 12, 1907. Dr. Bell explained that he had been through Hudson straits nine times. first time was in 1880 in a ship called the The Ocean Nymph,' a small sailing vessel, and the last time was in 1897 with Commander Wakeham. His trips were distributed over those 17 years between 1880 and 1887. All his trips were between June 22 and about October 10. In navigating the straits during the season between those dates with a steamship they never had any difficulty. . Witness never heard that the straits was frozen across in winter. There is ice there, but always more or less open water with it at all times. . Dr. Bell said that he did not know any more desirable piece of navigation in the world excepting the middle of the ocean, and even then a common sailor who could not take an astronomical observation could sail through the straits with perfect safety. That is what Henry Hudson's men did after putting him and part of the crew into an open boat and leaving them behind. Neither the bay nor the straits are frozen up any more than the Atlantic ocean. The sailing vessels that had been passing through the strait would all be in the neighbourhood of 300 tons. They were not always specially constructed for that service, but of late years a steamerThe Eric' takes the place of sailing ships. Old sailing vessels could scarcely hold their own in a head wind, and if there were scattered ice in the strait, they could hardly get through at all, and then it would be reported that they were stopped by the ice. These reports are all from reliable men who have been over the ground, who have navigated those straits and the bay from time to time and there is no doubt in my mind that with modern aids to navigation and a proper telephone system on the straits so that the ships could be informed where the floating ice was, they could navigate the straits at all times in the year. Eastern members may naturally think that this proposition is one simply for western Canada. But I wish to assure you and the hon. members from eastern Canada that it is almost as important to them as it is to western Canada. Twenty-five years ago the Canadian Pacific Railway company, sent their first trains from the Atlantic to the Pacific. That country was then almost a barren plain, but during this past year we have grown 360,000,000 bushels of grain. The people of eastern Canada are stretching western Canada. are trying to tie eastern Canada. get any other to tie us get hold of the trade in It seems to me that they up western Canada to They are afraid to let us outlet, they are bound up and keep us coming this way just as long as possible. But I tell you, Mr. Speaker, they will make lar we pay in freight rates on our produce a great mistake in this because every dolcoming east between Fort William and Montreal is that much money thrown away so far as we are concerned. Had the Hudson Bay route been in operation this year the people of western Canada would able them to make their homes more comhave $7,000,000 more in their pockets to enfortable and to pay for the manufactured goods they buy from eastern Canada. This proposition may not be altogether roseate so far as Ontario is concerned, but for Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island it is a different proposition altogether, because the ports of these provinces are accessible to the open sea; they are manufacturing goods which tured goods can be loaded into ocean going we are using every day, and their manufacvessels and taken around by the Hudson bay and delivered right into the heart of western Canada at two-thirds the freight rates they are at present paying. Just take the province of Nova Scotia as an example. Her shipping and manufacturing amounted last year to $33,000,000, her coal output to $16,500,000, her manufacture of steel rails and steel structures to $11,000,000, and her product of pig iron to $5,500,000, making a total of $66,000,000 for these four articles alone, all of which we are using in the west and all of which could be consigned to us at cheap freight rates by the Hudson bay route. I have not referred to the great advantage which the Hudson bay route would be to our cattle trade, but it goes without saying that it would afford splendid facilities for the export trade in cattle. Now, this government has definitely promised to build a railroad to the Hudson bay, and although the people of the west have never seen the fruition of the many promises which the right hon. the Prime Minister has made to them, now that the word has gone out that he is pretty soon going to give up his office to a younger man, I would ask the right hon. gentleman before he takes off his robes of office to do at least one thing for the people of western Canada so that they may be able to thank God he has not lived in vain. I trust the right hon. gentleman and his government will revise this report and build this road and open up this route which means so much to the people of the west. On motion of Mr. Paterson the debate was adjourned. On motion of Mr. Paterson the House adjourned at 11.20 p.m. INDEX SECOND SESSION-ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT, 1909-1910. Abbreviations of well known words and Parliamentary expressions are used in the following:-1o, 2o, ALLEN, Mr. H. E., Shefford. Quebec Command, Medical Officer, Pay- Apples grown in Prov. of Quebec (remarks) Blairmore Station Mail Service (Ques.) 7871 Budget, The (remarks) 2080 (ii). Census of 1911, Estimated Cost, &c. (Ques.) Civil Service Act Amt. B. 205 (Mr. Fisher) Combines Investigations Act B. 101 (Mr. Conservation of Natural Resources (B. 84) (iv). Names of Members (Ques.) 1196 (i). (remarks) in Com. of Sup., 7863 (v). Electrical Measure Units B. 7 (Mr. Field- A French Treaty B. 12 (Mr. Fielding) in Com. German Surtax, Explanation re Negotia- German Tariff, Agreement re Dairy Pro- German Trade Relations, Par. in New York Similar Treatment re French Treaty Value of Exports, &c. (Ques.) 261 (i). G.T.P. Branch Lines, Charters, Construc- Holstein and Jersey Cattle at Experimental Immigration Act Amt. B. 102 (Mr. Oliver) Indian Lands, Total Number of Acres sold, I.C.R., on Annual Stmt., 2812 (ii). Pets., Cor., &c. (M. for copies*) 1546 (i). Naval Defence B. 95 (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) Newspapers in Ont., Patronage re Adver- Inquiry for Ret., 8118 (v). Port Arthur Dredging Inspectors, Names, Postmaster General, Absence re Official P. O. Inspectors, Salary Increase, Pets. re Post Offices, Location in Federal Buildings, Post Office Mail Contracts (remarks) in Printing outside of Govt. Printing Bureau, Inquiry for, 2713 (ii). Race Track Gambling B. 6 (Mr. Miller) on Ry. Act (cable rates) Amt. B. 104 (Mr. Le- Rural Free Mail Delivery, Change in De- Locks furnished, &c. (Ques.) 784 (i). ARMSTRONG, Mr. J. E.-Con. SUPPLY-Con. 227 (i), 5726; (exhibitions) 5728 (iii); Civil Govt.-Agriculture experimental fund) 7838 (v). (land management Mail Subsidies and SS. Subventions (Can- Post Office-Outside Service (rural de- Public Works-Buildings-Que. (Que. im- Public Works-Dredging (new plant) 4761 Public Works-Harbours and Rivers- Public Works-Harbours and Rivers- Trade and Commerce (Grain Inspection Swine Commission, Report of (Ques.) 2429 Tariff Negotiations with U.S., on M. (Mr. ARMSTRONG, Mr. J. E.-Con. Zine Ores Smelting, Investigation, B. 182 ARTHURS, Mr. J., Parry Sound. Budget, The, 1946 (i). Burk's Falls Wharfage Dues, Amount for Grain shipped from and received at Lake Georgian Bay Canal, O.Cs. re Construction, Lake Nipissing Roller Dams, Total Cost, Navigable Waters Protection Act Amt. B. Parry Sound Post Office (remarks) in Com. Powassan-Nipissing Mail Routes, Pets. re Geological Survey (assay office, Vancou- Public Works-Buildings-Que. (Rober- Trent Canal Water Powers, Control by tice) North York, Ont. Blythe, Walter, Postponed Execution, Com- (correction) re Action of Crown, 2712 (ii). Britton, Hon. Mr. Justice and National Capital Cases and Action of the Crown, re Trent Canal, Company Promoters, Legislation re Protec- A+ AYLESWORTH, Hon. A. B.-Con. Customs and Fisheries Protection Act Amt. Disallowance of Ontario Legislation, on In- Dom. Police, Number sent to Thunder Bay, Dubuc, Hon. Mr. Justice, Date of Resigna- (remarks) 2278 (ii). Du Tremblay, Mr. Arthur, Instructions re Escheats to the Crown (B. 206) M. for Com. Exchequer Court Act (ry. accidents) Amt. Franking Privilege re Justice Dept. (Ans.) Franking Privilege, Political Literature and Judges, Defence of, 7163 (iv). Delay in Apptmt. (remarks) 5624 (iii). New York Canals, Use of by Canadian Ves- (remarks) on M. for Sup., 5206 (iii). |