their promotions on the recommendation of the deputy minister and the approval of the commission. Mr. FOSTER. Would the minister give me the names of the four who are to be promoted? Mr. TEMPLEMAN. Their names are Yetts, Lyon, Allen and Lewis. They are the senior clerks in that division. of $609 for flaunting around the country when it is really the minister who has been doing it? The only justification for paying Mr. Nicholas $609 for travelling expenses is that he has been on some official business. Was he on some official business, or was he accompanying the minister? Mr. TEMPLEMAN. My hon. friend will probably see in the Auditor General's Report a small charge for travelling expenses Mr. FOSTER. How long has Mr. Yetts for the minister. been in the service? Mr. TEMPLEMAN. Since 1895. Mr. Lewis came in on the reorganization of the service, but was employed temporarily before that for about two years. Mr. Allen has been in the service about two years and Mrs. Lyon about two years. Mr. FOSTER. Will the minister kindly give me the names of the four left in possession, and state how long they have been in the service? Mr. TEMPLEMAN. Arthur Robert came into the service in 1901, Ekins in 1907, Teevens in 1907 and Cantin in 1908. Mr. FOSTER. If you are going to recompense those who have been longest in the service, Mr. Yetts, who came in in 1905, has a fair claim to promotion. You have promoted one who has been only two years doing temporary work, while Robert, who has been eight years in the service, and is I suppose at the maximum of his staff, is left. What is it debars him? Mr. TEMPLEMAN. It is all a question of the ability of the clerks. Those I have named are, in the opinion of the deputy minister, the ones most efficient and most worthy of promotion at the present time The whole matter of promotion is absolutely in the hands of the deputy minister, subject of course to the Civil Service Commission. Mr. FOSTER. I do not know the clerks myself, and cannot pass any opinion on them. In that respect I suppose I am pretty much in the same position as the minister, who says he leaves all the promotions to his deputy. I am inclined to think that he has sometimes ideas of his own on the subject. If he left it entirely with the deputy, I am inclined to think that the proper ones would be apt to get promoted. Department of Inland Revenue-contingen cies, $8,000. Mr. FOSTER. I see that B. C. Nicholas has an account of $609.30 for travelling expenses. Who is B. C. Nicholas? Mr. TEMPLEMAN. He is my private secretary. Mr. FOSTER. Does not the minister think it would be more the square deal not to shoulder off on Mr. Nicholas the charge of. Mr. FOSTER. That is what I complain The minister is a larger man, and why does he not bear his own expenses? Mr. TEMPLEMAN. I hope the hon. gentleman does not accuse me of charging to my private secretary a sum of money which gestion. The travelling expenses of my I have expended-because that is the sugprivate secretary were incurred on a visit to Nova Scotia and on a visit to British Columbia, accompanying me in both cases. I assume that the difference in our expenses is due to the fact that, like my hon. friend, I travel on a pass while my private secretary does not. Mr. HENDERSON. Does the minister not travel in a special private car, in which his private secretary would travel also, at no expense to the country beyond the cost of hauling the car? I would be surprised to find the minister travelling in an ordinary car such as we common mortals on this side of the House travel in. In the west during the last summer I did not find any of the ministers travelling otherwise than in a special car. Mr. FISHER. You did not look very hard then. Mr. HENDERSON. The Minister of Public Works (Mr. Pugsley) looks at me because I found him travelling as a pilgrim in the pilgrim car. Mr. PUGSLEY. I was delighted to meet you too. Mr. HENDERSON. I was delighted to meet the minister because he treated me to a very nice dinner. I had a foretaste of what may happen some day when members on this side of the House will have an opportunity of going on pilgrimages. Surely the Minister of Inland Revenue is not going to travel in a less gentlemanly way than the Minister of Public Works or the Minister of Militia or the Minister of Agriculture. Mr. FISHER. Did the Minister of Agriculture travel through the west in a private car? Mr. HENDERSON. I did not see him in one. Mr. FISHER. Or anywhere else Railways would explain how the expense Mr. DANIEL. Perhaps the Minister of of hauling private cars over other lines than government lines is met. Do the ordinary railways charge so much a mile for hauling a private car or do they haul it free of expense? Mr. HENDERSON. Possibly he does not. taken a private car. I can understand that I think when he went to Halton to try to ministers may find it more convenient to induce the farmers there to elect a doctor do so and if they do find it more convenifrom Toronto to represent them, he travel-ent I think they should take the car. led in a very plain way and tried to show himself as the friend of the farmer. I may be mistaken, possibly the Minister of Agriculture does not travel in a special car, but I would be surprised if a minister from and go down to Nova Scotia and not travel in a special car. I thought that every one of the ministers had a private car. Perhaps the minister can explain whether he actually did travel in a private car and that may explain how it was that the expenses of his private secretary were so large as compared with his own. British Columbia would come down here Mr. TEMPLEMAN. If it is of any interest to the House I have no objection to stating the facts. I do not think the hon. gentleman will find very excessive travelling expenses against either my private secretary or myself. I was in Nova Scotia on one occasion on an official visit but I was not in a private car, I paid my Pullman car accommodation to the Intercolonial railway and my private secretary did the same. I was in British Columbia a year or two ago in company with Mr. Brock, director of the Geological Survey, visiting all the mines. On that occasion I had the use of a government car, an old private car which was very useful, indeed, as we stopped at all the small places from the Crowsnest to the west end of the Columbia & Western and the Victoria & Eastern road. Without a private car it would have been absolutely impossible to have visited very many of the small mining towns of British Columbia. On my last visit to the west I travelled as my hon. friend from Halton (Mr. Henderson) travelled and paid my Pullman fare as he did. I met him in Vancouver and I do not think he saw me in a private car. I do not think the ministers generally, travel in private cars to any extent, but I would certainly do so if I thought it necessary. It was sometimes necessary in my case, not only in order to be able to live in the car, but to receive visits from persons interested, for instance, in mining. Mr. FISHER. I would not have interjected anything if the hon. member for Halton (Mr. Henderson) had not said that he met ministers in the west who had been travelling in private cars. I happen to be one of the ministers who spent a good deal of time in the west this summer and I asked him if he met me in a private car. If I had felt it to be in the interest of the public to carry a private car with me I would have done so. As a matter of fact I find it more convenient not to have one, and generally do not have one. I do not think that on any trip around the country I have Mr. GRAHAM. When a minister takes an official car he makes his own arrangement with the railways as to its transportation. The Minister of Railways on account of the position he holds, is entitled to free transportation on any railway in his car on any railway in the United States Canada and he gets free transportation for ment to the railways for hauling a as well. My department is under complifact I have been censured several times car, in modestly by managers of railways because theirs. When any other minister takes a I did not take my car, as they always took car he makes his own arrangements for ittransportation. Mr. HENDERSON. What is that arrangement? Mr. GRAHAM. I do not know. Mr. DANIEL. The Minister of Public Works travels sometimes in a private car. Perhaps he would inform the House how the expense of hauling the car is arranged with other railways than the Intercolonial railway. Mr. PUGSLEY. In the accounts of my department it will not be found that any charge has been made for the transportation of my not private but official car. I never travel in a private car. The car is an official car where I transact the business of my department when I travel, but as far as possible I very much prefer to travel in an ordinary Pullman. It is very much more expensive to the Minister to get a car from the Department of Railways than to travel in an ordinary Pullman. I find that we have to pay for all our food and even to pay the laundry bills and in going a comparatively short distance as to St. John and other places in New Brunswick I have found it very much more expensive to engage a car from the Railway Department than to travel in the Pullman and pay my own expenses, and ordinarily I take the Pullman. During the last summer I made an It official visit to the Northwest. became necessary for me to stop off at a great many different places where public works are either under construction or in contemplation. I found that I could not possibly attend to that work without having an official car, and I did arrange to have it. And the Canadian Pacific railway very kindly transported the car free of charge over its railway-it extended me that courtesy. The same was done by the Canadian Northern. Mr. DANIEL. I do not think that anyone objects to the Minister of Public Works or any other minister, when on public business that requires it, using an official car. But I was a little surprised to find, from the statement of the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Pugsley), that in such cases the minister was called upon to meet the expenditures for food, laundry, etc., used in his private car. Have I understood it aright? Mr. PUGSLEY. That is the case. Mr. DANIEL. I was under the impression that I had seen in the Auditor General's Report on several occasions charges for supplies on private cars. I do not say that any of these was in connection with the private car of the Minister of Public Works, as I do not remember. But I am a little surprised, and I think other members of the House will be surprised, to find that the minister himself pays these expenditures for provisioning and other charges in connection with his official car out of his own pocket. Mr. PUGSLEY. That not only includes all supplies of every kind for the minister himself, but for every person who is travelling with him, and also the attendants upon the car. So, all the expenditures of every kind in the way of supplies, laundry and so on are paid by the minister who is travelling. Mr. DANIEL. And the minister makes no claim for that on the public treasury? Mr. PUGSLEY. Unless he might do it in the way of travelling expenses. I do not say he does. Department of Labour-Salaries, $32,300; Contingencies, $12,000. Hon. MACKENZIE KING (Minister of Labour). I may mention that there is a clerical error in the explanation of this item of salaries. In the fourth line, relating to second division, subdivision 'A'. it is stated that there are two clerks at $800. That should read one clerk at $800. Then, in the sixth line, referring to third division, subdivision B, instead of one clerk at $800, it should be two at $800. This is a mere reversal of the figures and does not add to the total. Mr. FOSTER. It seems to me that, if it appears in the estimate as third division, subdivision B, one clerk at $800, the minister cannot make it two. I should be inclined to think that could only be done by a supplementary estimate. Mr. ARMSTRONG. How long is it since that report was completed? Mr. KING. It is some weeks since it was prepared. Mr. ARMSTRONG. And will it be placed on the table at an early day? Mr. KING. I think I can promise it for Monday possibly. Mr. CROCKET. How many employees are there in the Labour Department at Ottawa? Mr. KING. At present nineteen. Mr. FOSTER. I see that there are two extra in the second division, subdivision A. Will the minister explain that? Mr. FIELDING. The details are given on page 26 of the estimates. Mr. FOSTER. But what we want is the reason. Mr. KING. That is the item I called attention to. There should be only one clerk at $800. That provides for an additional clerk one with a knowledge of French. Mr. FOSTER. But there is an addition of two besides. Mr. KING. One is a stenographer and the other is accountant. Mr. FOSTER. At what salary does the stenographer enter? Mr. KING. At $500. The additional clerk to take the position of accountant is provided for in in the second division, subdivision A, a clerk at $1,200. Heretofore the accounting of the department has been carried on by the accountant of the Post Office Department. But now that the Department of Labour has been given a separate standing in the service, it is proposed to have an accountant of its own. Mr. FOSTER. But there are two addiOne is a stenographer at $500 and what is tions in the third division, subdivision B. the other? Mr. KING. A stenographer at $800, one with a knowledge of French to assist in the correspondence. Mr. FOSTER. Why does he enter at the maximum of his class? Mr. KING. I think it would be impossible to find a clerk at less than $800 who would carry out the work satisfactorily. Something more than the ordinary routine work is required of the one in this position. Mr. FOSTER. But the schedule provides that in this class they commence at $500 and go up to $800. If clerks are to be appointed at the maximum, you might as well have no Civil Service Act at all. Mr. ARMSTRONG. Would the minister (Mr. King) be good enough to give us a general idea of what these officials in the department are doing? Mr. KING. No, that comes under the general estimates. The cost of printing and publishing the Labour Gazette' includes the amounts paid to correspondents. Mr. DANIEL. How many copies of the Labour Gazette' are issued, and to whom are they issued? Mr. KING. The department has a list of paid subscribers numbering, I think, about 9,000. Then there is a free list, including secretaries of the trade unions, boards of trade, members of both Houses of parliament, labour departments in other countries, and societies with which we exchange periodicals. Altogether about 14,000 copies of the Gazette' are issued each month. Mr. DANIEL. What is the revenue obtained from paying subscriptions? is Mr. KING. The revenue as given in $1,669.82. The amount charged for the Labour Gazette' is 20 cents per anLabour Ganum. Bound copies of the zette' are sold at 50 cents a copy. The revenue of the department is derived from the sale of bound copies, and from the sale of individual copies, and the general subscriptions. Mr. ARMSTRONG. bour Gazette ' printed? Where is the " La Mr. KING. The department obtains the Gazette' from the King's Printer. There have been times when the Printmuch crowded, ing Bureau has been and the King's Printer has found it necessarv to have his own arrangements. But as far as our department is concerned, we deal with the King's Printer. Mr. KING. It would take some little time to outline, even in a very general way, the work of the officials of the department. But I may say that the department publishes a monthly journal, the 'Labour Gazette. the Auditor General's Report last year Several officers conduct investigations and statistical compile reports and tables relating to strikes and lockouts, changes in the rates of wages the cost of living, industrial accidents, and like subjects. of The services others are made necessary by the Industrial Disputes' Act, establishing boards under that Act, carrying on correspondence and the preparation of the reports sent by the different parties concerned. There are also officers whose duty it is to prepare schedules of wages for insertion in public contracts-the fair wage officers. They travel in different parts of the Dominion and investigate what are fair rates of wages to be paid for the 'different classes of labour on works being carried on for the government. Then there is a great deal of correspondence in the department itself, in the nature of answers to inquiries in regard to industrial questions in this country, wages changes, and a great variety of subjects. There is also a great deal of correspondence from other countries and from individuals, as to the working of the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act. Then there are other officials of the department who are engaged in the work of translating, as the 'Labour Gazette is published in French as well as English. There are also clerks who have to keep track of the expenditures, and the amounts derived from the sale of the 'Labour Gazette', | subscription lists and such work as newspaper offices are obliged to do. There is also a library in the department under the charge of a clerk. Mr. ARMSTRONG. Do contingencies include the cost of printing the Labour Ga zette'? At six o'clock committee took recess After Recess. Committee resumed at eight o'clock. Mr. CROTHERS. I see that there is $600 here for Allowance for private secretary.' Why it is necessary to make that allowance? Why could not a clerk in the department do the work of a private secretary? Mr. KING. The other clerks of the department have their specific duties to perform and therefore they are not available for this work. The secretary is a very hard worked official. His time is not his own. Regular clerks work the prescribed hours only. He gives virtually his entire time to the duties he has to perform. My secretary, Mr. Francis W. Giddens has frequently worked with me four nights in a week from seven until twelve o'clock, and I would like to say of him that a more faithful or efficient officer in the discharge of his duties is not to be found in the public service. Mr. J. D. TAYLOR. I would like to call the attention of the minister to the fact that a great many Japanese who were American citizens came over from the United States during the recent fishing season and obtained employment in the fisheries in British Columbia waters. I ness of any person in particular who is not in the government service. How are the correspondents of the Labour Gazette appointed? Are they recommended by the labour organizations or by the political organizations. would like to ask the minister how it was Mr. KING. The department has sought that these Japanese, who were American to secure as correspondent some person who citizens, came to be employed in Canada. It is thought to be persona grata to the inoccurred to me that probably the Depart- dustrial classes, not necessarily the labour ment of Labour, being alive to the interests element alone, but employers as well. Beof that class of labour and having seen this fore any appointment has been made the statement reported in the press, and had got department has as a rule ascertained from busy and ascertained why these men had different sources the standing of those to obtained this employment thus depriving be appointed. In some instances recommena certain number of Canadian fishermen of dations has been made by the member, in the livelihood that they were entitled to. which cases further communication may Perhaps the minister could tell me if he have been had with other parties to ascertain the standing of the person recomhas any information on that subject? mended. The appointments are not made as political appointments at all. I am not aware of any having been so made and I should be very sorry to see them made for that reason Mr. KING. In regard to that I would say that any department of government would hardly find it expedient to act on reports that appear in the press from time to time. This particular report of which the hon. gentleman has spoken did not come to my notice. Had the matter been as serious as it appears to have been, the parties, one would think, would have been sufficiently interested to have notified the department of a case of that sort and requested an investigation. If a notification of that kind were to come to the depart ment an investigation certainly would be proceeded with, if it fell within the scope of the department's work. It is quite possible that in the case which has been mentioned these men may have been employed in violation of some existing Act, in the event of which there would have been redress in the courts, but without the particulars having been presented to the department in a formal way I hardly think the department would have been justified in proceeding of its own accord. Mr. J. D. TAYLOR I might ask the minister whether that would come within the scope of the duties of the local correspondents, whether they are supposed to take cognizance of a thing of that kind. Mr. KING. Correspondents are expected to report on matters in their districts of interest to the department, correspondents are not informants expected to notify the department of the violations of any existing laws; they are to send in records of the actual happenings in their district so as to furnish statistical and descriptive records. Mr. J. D. TAYLOR. Would the minister consider it the duty of the department, now that attention has been called to the matter, to find out how these Japanese who are American citizens, came to be working in Canada under the guise of British subjects and having licenses issuable only to British subjects. Will the minister investigate and endeavour to protect the labourers on the Fraser river? Mr. KING. I should like to look carefully into all the circumstances to see whether it properly comes within the jurisdiction of the department to do what the hon. gentleman suggests. If on investigation I find that to be so I will certainly be pleased to follow it up. Mr. J. D. TAYLOR. Is it a fact that the Labour Gazette is printed in an office outside of the Government Printing Bureau? Mr. KING. At present I understand that is the case. The pressure of work has been such that the King's Printer found it impossible to print the Labour Gazette at the Bureau, and he made an arrangement with an outside office to do the printing. Mr. J. D. TAYLOR. What office? Mr. KING. I understand that the Ottawa Free Press' is where the Gazette is being printed at the present time. The King's Printer has made an arrangement, Mr. J. D. TAYLOR. There is a corres- I understand, having in view what he repondent at Vancouver and another at West-garded as the best arrangement to make. minster and this matter was very conspi- Mr. J. D. TAYLOR. I presume cuous in the press there. It seems to me King's Printer called for tenders? the Labour Department could not be more the usefully employed than in taking up a Mr. KING. I presume so, but it not bematter of that kind which is not the busi-ing in my department I cannot say. |