Mr. KING. That is exactly what I said. Mr. J. D. TAYLOR. This Labour ed as an indication that the work was perGazette' according to the imprint is print- formed under fair conditions. ed by C. H. Parmelee, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty' and on it there is a union label. I find that on a copy of the estimates which I have in my hand there is no union label. Does that explain the different fashion of printing these two official documents? 3 Mr. R. L. BORDEN. Does not the union label usually mean that the shop is not an open shop? Mr. KING. It usually does mean that, but not always. Mr. KING. Some nine or ten years ago when the Labour Gazette was first pub-tration. Are there any others? lished the union label was put on as an indication that the work was being performed under fair conditions. I understand that the Government Printing Bureau was an open shop, but notwithstanding that, the conditions were such that those con Mr. R. L. BORDEN. This is one illus trolling the label authorized the Printing Bureau to use it on the Labour Gazette. As it was a publication which was circulating largely among the working classes it was thought advisable to have the label put on it under these circumstances, and there does not seem to be any reason to discontinue the practice. Mr. J. D. TAYLOR. That is, that in the case of a publication circulating largely among the labouring classes the union label is attached in order to lead the labouring classes to believe that the government printing is carried on under the conditions called for by the appearance of that union label, whereas as a matter of fact the government printing is not carried on under these conditions, and the government printing office is not what they call a fair office, to take the expression used by the minister. Mr. KING. I do not remember having used the expression fair' office. Mr. J. D. TAYLOR. My hon. friend beside me tells me that the expression used by the minister was open shop.' I believe the open shop is not recognized by union labour as the ideal condition. Mr. KING. I think there are others. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. Could the minister name one? Mr. KING. I could not name one at the moment, but I have no doubt that with a little research I could find one. Mr. J. D. TAYLOR. Last session I asked the then Minister of Labour whether he would be kind enough to use his influence with the Postmaster General to have the fair wage clause inserted in all postal contracts. I suppose that, owing to the relaister of Labour and the Postmaster Gentionship then existing between the Mineral, he handed that matter over to his Minister of Labour whether he has dissuccessor. I would like to ask the present cussed that with the Postmaster General, and whether there is any prospect of the fair wage clause being attached to contracts of the Post Office Department. Mr. KING. My present impression is that the fair wage clause forms a part of every contract of the Post Office Department. In connection with contracts for postal supplies, such as letter carriers' uniforms and the like, the Department of Labour has been asked to approve of schedules of rates of wages of firms tendering for this class of work before the Post Office Department would make the contract, and I believe that in some cases contracts have been refused by the Post Office Department because of the unwillingness of some firms to pay what were regarded as fair and reasonable wages. Mr. J. D. TAYLOR. Are we to under stand that the Postmaster General submits all mail to the Minister of Labour and receives from him an opinion whether they provide for the payment of fair wages for the work performed? Mr. KING. I think that many trade unionists would prefer to have the closed shop, but I do not think that trade unionists necessarily hold that because a shop is an open shop the conditions may not be as fair as they are in a closed shop. The conditions that are important to labour are the hours of labour, the wages paid, and the sanitary conditions under which the employees work; all of these conditions Mr. KING. I was speaking with referare excellent at the Government Print-ence to supplies furnished to the Post Ofing Bureau. That being so those who fice Department. I had not in mind the are interested in seeing such conditions question of carrying the mails. I have no furthered by means of the label were quite doubt, however, that the desire of the Postagreeable that the label should be put on the Labour Gazette' when it was printed at the Government Bureau notwithstanding that the Bureau was not a closed shop. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. I understand the minister to say that the label was attach en master General would be to see that a fair rate of wages was paid to everybody gaged in that work, and if it became apparent that such was not the case, I am sure that he would be willing and glad to confer with the Department of Labour on the subject. Mr. J. D. TAYLOR. I would ask the Minister of Labour to be good enough to take that up with the Postmaster General, because I know that in my part of the country the pay of the Post Office Department for services of that kind is most miserable, and does not at all approximate to what in our country is considered fair wages. I am sure that he could not do a more popular act than to secure the reform I have suggested from the Post Office De partment. Department of Labour $12,000. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. Is there any increase in that? Mr. KING. There is an increase, which however is more apparent than real. Heretofore the amount of money required for purposes included under the head of contingencies has been voted in the miscellaneous vote, which covered the entire expenditure of the Department of Labour. This year the amount has been separated so as to bring the contingencies under one head. Against an increase of $10,550 there should be offset a reduction of $7,400 in the vote being asked this year as compared with 1909-10, which makes a net increase of of certain officers have replaced other officers at lower rates of salary. For instance, a vacant clerkship in the second division B, of an estimated salary of $800, caused by the death of Mr. Rochester in December, was filled by the appointment of T. L. Burns in the third division at $750, resulting in a decrease of $50. Then, a vacant clerkship in the second division B, at an resignation of F. A. Cleminson in Septemestimated salary of $900, caused by the ber, 1908, was filled by the appointment of contingencies, Mr. Ryder in the third division B at $750, making a decrease of $50. A new clerkship in the second division B at an estimated salary of $800, was filled by the appointment of John Nolan in the third division at $750, making another decrease of $50. A vacant clerkship in the second division B, caused by the death of R. McConnell in June, 1909, his estimated salary being $1,250, was filled by the appointment of H. L. Carson in the same division at a minimum salary of $800, making a decrease of $450. Then, Mr. Finnigan, a clerk in the second division, subdivision B, whose estimated salary last side service at the port of London, on year was $1,150, was transferred to the outOctober, 1, 1909. This vacancy is estimatclerk in the same division at a minimum ed to be filled by the appointment of a salary of $800. There is a decrease there of division, subdivision B, whose estimated $350. Mr. Methot, a clerk in the second salary for 1909-10, was $1,200, was replaced by Mr. A. B. Sowter, an officer of the outside service at Winchester, B.C., who came in at $1,000, a decrease of $200. A vacancy in the third division, subdivision A, caused by the resignation of J. N. Cram, whose estimated salary was $950, was filled by the appointment of Mr. A. S. Ogilvy at the minimum salary of $500, a decrease of $450. Of the amount provided for flat increases, $23,900, the sum of $800 was unused, $600 in the second division and $200 in the lower grades. As the estimates for 1909-10 were prepared on the basis of officers who were transferred from outside votes receiving their statutory increases from the first of April, whereas they were only granted those increases from the first of October, there was an over-estimate of $1,275. Allowing for these reductions, we have $3,675 as the net increase that we are providing for. The six additional officers we propose to bring in, and for whom we provide $4,800 are expected to be required, perhaps, in the statistical branch, owing to the operation of the French treaty. Of course, we must keep a detailed record of that trade for statistical purposes. Hitherto, under the more limited treaty that has been in existence, there was not much work involved, but the new treaty with its wider scope will make necessary additions to the staff of the Statistical Department. say The only $3,150. Such items as printing and Department of Customs-salaries, $244,975. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. I suppose the minister thinks the increase is worthy of a little explanation. Hon. WM. PATERSON (Minister of Customs). The committee will observe that we are proposing to have six additional clerks. We propose to put them in the second division, subdivision B, ranging from $800 to $1,600, starting them at the minimum. There are statutory increases amounting to $4,525; and there is the proposed promotion of six officers from the third division B, to the third division A. Three of these now receive $800 and three $750. They will be promoted to the minimum of subdivision A, namely, $900. That means increases of three at $100 and three at $150, a total of $750. But we are not asking for that much more money, because Mr. R. L. BORDEN. I do not understand to me. But I further put my officers under that. Why should it be so? Mr. PATERSON. We shall have to open another set of books and have a special column in our returns because of the treaty. With the few articles coming in under the old treaty, the clerks could note these entries as they came to them and make up their tables with comparatively little labour. But now this special column will have to be added, and we shall be able to give, month by month, in our unrevised statement, statistics with reference to that trade. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. I would like to understand the minister's theory on this subject. What is it that makes the preparation of these statistics more difficult? Suppose there were no treaty at all, and you had exactly the same amount of imports and exports, would these additional assistants be required? I ask purely for information. Mr. PATERSON. I do not wonder that the hon. member (Mr. R. L. Borden) asks the question for I asked it myself when the proposition first came before me The same idea occurred to me that, I suppose, is in the mind of the hon. member-that if more goods come in from France there might be so many less come in from other countries. But, under the old treaty, when an invoice came before our statistical officers, they could pick out the articles coming under the treaty, as they were few, and by merely keeping a running memorandum, it was easy to sum, them up. But now that the French treaty will embrace a very large number of articles, and with other nations as well as France receiving the benefit of this most favoured nations treatment, there will be many shipments coming in under the treaty-most of them from France, of course, but some from other countries, making it necessary to keep, day by day, a regular tabulated record which will show the workings of the treaty. promise that unless they found these additional officers to be necessary, they are not to be put on. My officers promised that unless these men' not be put on. are required they will other clerks, certain officers take the port Of course these work with of Montreal, others the port of Toronto, and the work will be divided in that way. It may be that we will not have to put on six men. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. There is a very simple alternative, to repeal the intermediate tariff. Mr. PATERSON. Oh, yes, but what a misfortune that would be. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. To these men who would not get their appointments. As far as the country is concerned, it would be far quicker. Mr. HENDERSON. Is it proposed to have a separate column for every country that will enjoy the same privileges as France enjoys or will all countries that come under that intermediate tariff be thrown together? If so I do not see that it will afford us much information as to the extent to which our trade with France will be improved under this French treaty. Mr. PATERSON. The intention is to have on the margin the countries for which goods are imported as they are in the general tariff in the trade and navigation returns now. We will apply the same thing to the intermediate tariff so that you will see what other countries are participating and to what extent the trade with France has developed. Mr. HENDERSON. Then we will have to go all through the trade and navigation returns to see what that increase is. Mr. PATERSON. Unless we do it for you. We have summaries and we will try and do that. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. What is the meanMr. R. L. BORDEN. I do not knowing of the increase in contingencies? whether I understand it yet. Is it because the officers are obliged to apply a third tariff, the intermediate tariff, or is it because the government anticipate a larger importation, or both? Mr. PATERSON. It is the intermediate tariff. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. That is, you have a third tariff? Mr. PATERSON. Yes, I should have said that. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. The minister thinks it really necessary to have these additional officers? Mr PATERSON. I questioned it, just as the hon. member does. It was explained Mr. PATERSON. Under the Civil Service Act we are empowered to employ clerical and other assistance temporarily as for instance in the case of the illness of an official but without such a vote as this there is no provision for paying these extra clerks. I cannot say that all or any of this will be expended. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. The commissioner recommends it, does he? Mr. PATERSON. Oh surely. Department of Railways and Canals-Civil government, salaries including M. J. Butler at $8,000, $130,187.50. Hon. GEO. P. GRAHAM (Minister of Railways and Canals). By a glance at the estimates, it will be seen there is a reduction of $9,500. The number of clerks is reduced by six. In one division there is an increase of one. That is caused by the promotion of Mr. Little, the accountant in the de partment, to the first division subdivision A, which was done in the usual way through the Civil Service Commission. During the last five years I think Mr. Little has handled over $139,000,000. He is one of the most important officials we have and has been in the service some 28 years. That is the only increase in any class and there is a decrease in the total expenditure of $9,500. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. It is interesting to observe that a decrease is really an increase. Where is the increase in this case? Mr. GRAHAM. There is absolutely no increase in the total. The decrease comes from the fact that while some officials have statutory increases, and Mr. Little's salary will be increased in promoting him from one class to the other, we drop some six clerks from the total that were in the estimates of last year. So we have a net increase in the expenditure of $9,500. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. Is there an actual decrease in the number of clerks employed? Mr. GRAHAM. The decrease is rather in the estimate of last year. We had several vacancies in the department, and in our reorganization I came to the conclusion that we could get along without filling those vacancies, and they are dropped from the reorganization. Contingencies, $15,000. Mr. STANFIELD. Is it the intention to start a purchasing agency in Ottawa to buy supplies for the Intercolonial? Mr. GRAHAM. Yes, in connection with the Intercolonial we are establishing a purchasing agency. Of course that will come in the Intercolonial estimates. But we intend to have a purchasing agency under the direct control of the department. Mr. HENDERSON. Where is this printing done? Mr. GRAHAM. I think our departmental work and our reports are all printed at the Printing Bureau, but I am not positive. It all comes through the King's Printer at least. Mr. HENDERSON. So did the report of the Department of Labour come through the King's Printer, it bore his impress, and yet it seemed to have been farmed out. I do not know whether the Minister of Railways is engaged in farming operations as well as the Minister of Labour. Mr. GRAHAM. The head of the Printing Bureau would have to say that, personally I do not know. We get our report from the King's Printer, I imagine it is done at the Printing Bureau. Mr. DANIEL. Are tenders asked for the supply of any of this stationery? Mr. GRAHAM. I stated before that we do not ask for tenders for stationery, our printed material is supplied by the King's Printer. The head of that department would be able to say how it is done. Mr. DANIEL. I understand your print Mr. GRAHAM. This is the same figure ing is done there, I was referring to staas it has been for years. tionery. Mr. PUGSLEY. There is a stationery department to which all requisitions go for stationery. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. Who is the head of that department? Mr. GRAHAM. The Secretary of State is the head of the Printing Bureau, and of the Stationery Department as well. Mr. PATERSON. When the Secretary of State is here he will be able to show that it is all right. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. He may be able to say it is all right, but he ought to be here to say it. It is not satisfactory to be told that we should get information from some one else who is not here. If that information is necessary from some one else, that person ought to be here to give it. Mr. PATERSON. Does the hon. gentleman mean the supplying of stationery to all the departments? Mr. R. L. BORDEN. An inquiry is made as to whether there are tenders; the minister says he does not know, we will have to apply to the head of some other department. Then I say if we are to apply to the head of some other department that head ought to be here to give the information. Mr. PATERSON. He will no doubt give it when he is here passing the estimates in his department. Mr. GRAHAM. So far as an item in any department is concerned, we do not ask for tenders, we send a requisition for it. When the Department of the Secretary of State comes up, all this will be a matter for criticism, how he does all this. Mr. ARMSTRONG. All we could get from the Minister of Labour was that the Printing Bureau did the work, and that he knew nothing further about it. Mr. GRAHAM. As to buying by tender. knowing something about buying paper and supplies of that kind, I am inclined to think that when the Secretary of State comes to make his reply he will have to say that he buys his paper as any dealer does, getting it from the best people at the best price he can. Any man who is engaged in the paper business often buys his stock by tender. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. The Minister of Cus Mr. HENDERSON. In the meantime you toms says that this is a very proper queshave got your money voted. Mr. DANIEL. This is the first time I have learned that you apply to the Secretary of State with your requisitions for stationery. All I have heard mentioned before was the Printing Bureau. Mr. GRAHAM. My hon. friend will understand that no person has said that he applied to the Secretary of State. Requisitions are made to the King's Printer. The question was asked who is the head of the department; it is the Secretary of State. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. Certainly he is the King's Printer for the purpose of giving information to this House. Is it a charge from one department to the other, as if it were an actual purchase, or what is the system? • Mr. GRAHAM. I think you will find we are responsible to the King's Printer in cash, as if it were a transaction betwen our department and some outside printing establishment. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. He supplies the other departments at certain prices, and the question is whether or not, in laying in those supplies, he adopts the system of tender, and no one knows anything about it. Mr. GRAHAM. He will be able to tell you that. Mr. PATERSON. I have no doubt he does apply for tenders in many cases. Mr. ARMSTRONG. We tried to obtain from the Minister of Labour some information in regard to the printing done in the Printing Bureau, and he finally gave us to understand that it was done by the Free Press Printing Company in this town, and apparently not done by tender at all. That item this year amounts to $23,300. Cer tainly it is a proper question to ask, and there should be some information. Mr. GRAHAM. Perhaps the head of that department will say when his department is under discussion that he did get tenders for it. tion when the Secretary of State is in his the secretary is not in his place? I replace. What kind of a question is it when member an incident occurring once in a court in Nova Scotia where witness was trying to explain to counsel what kind of a dog a retriever was and finally, to make himself understood, he said: He is a dog which, if you throw your handkerchief away, will go and bring it to you, whereupon counsel responded: What kind of a dog is he when you do not have any handkerchief? Department of Marine and Fisheries-Salaries, $250,150. Hon. L. P. BRODEUR (Minister of Marine and Fisheries). The amount voted last year for this item was $247,830. This year $250,150 is asked, or an increase of $2,320. The increase is made up as follows: In the first division, subdivision 'A', there is an increase of $600 to six officers who have not reached the maximum of their class. In the first division, subdivision 'B', there is a decrease of $750. The decrease is due to the fact that five of the officers who have reached the maximum salary have dropped out and their places will be filled by officers at the minimum salary. Mr. HENDERSON. What becomes of the officers who drop out? Do they go into some other branch? Mr. BRODEUR. Yes, they have gone up to some other branch or have left the service. There is the wreck commissioner, one hydrographer, one chief clerk. and the commissioner of lights. In the second division subdivision A,' there is an increase of $2,600 which is made up as follows: One translator at $1,600 and the statutory increase of $50 to each of the officers of this class who have not reached the maximum. Three who have reached the maximum salary have dropped out and their places are to be filled by officers at the minimum salary. In the second division, subdivision 'B', there is a decrease of $1,300. In the third division, subdivision 'A', there is an increase of $700 made up |