to was the looking after the other buoys and aids to navigation at the other points in the Bay of Fundy that he mentioned. But, Sir, when one recalls the pitiful cries of the poor little boy from Scotland, to whom the hon. member for St. John made reference, within a few hours of his destination, 'Mother, save me, I am drowning,' and when one thinks of the fearful scenes which were enacted in the darkness of that cold and stormy night, when thirty-nine precious lives were sacrificed to, what I think has been clearly shown to have been the neglect of this department, one wonders at the callousness and the heartlessness of the officers of the department in putting such a statement as that upon the records of this House: other more important business on hand.' Mr. Speaker, it was not long ago when a Royal Commission appointed by this government exposed to the people of this country the inefficiency, the incompetence and the corruption which characterized the administration of this department. That commission exposed those conditions in very strong language which will not soon be forgotten. But I venture to say that those conditions which characterize this department have been brought home to the people of the maritime provinces at least, by this lamentable disaster and loss of life with an effect which no language, however strong, can produce, and which no such sophistry as the Minister of Marine has addressed to this House to-night will alter. ship was fully nine miles out of her course. So that I believe the judgment of this House will bear me out in saying that there must have been something vitally wrong with the compass of that ship. It is said by the hon. member for the City of St. John (Mr. Daniel) that the compass was tested when the vessel left the other side, and he asked if the vessel was so much out of her course on account of a defect in the compass, how she could have found the mouth of the Bay of Fundy. Well, she was only nine miles out of her course, and still there was an opening of thirty miles between Brier Island and Gannet Rock light. It is altogether too fine a point to pretend that if the gas buoy of Old Proprietor ledge was not working, that was sufficient reason for the captain of the Hestia ' paying no attention to Gannet Rock light and changing his bearings and shifting his course. on I regret that the hon. member for the city of St. John (Mr. Daniel) in his anxiety to make a point against the government, should have cast reflections the shipping facilities of his own city. We are all trying to build up a winter port in the great city of St. John. Have we not heard over and over again in years past from our sister provinces and the other side of the water that the Bay of Fundy is a tortuous, difficult course for vessels? Should not the hon. member for St. John city rather uphold the advantages of the Bay of Fundy than decry them? I think he would be doing his duty Mr. W. F. TODD (Charlotte). Mr. Speaker, as the House has been occupied this government to build up the harbour by his constituency much better by urging for several hours in the discussion of this and equip it with better lights and every resolution, which has been moved by the protection possible. But instead, he aphon. member for the city of St. John (Mr. peals to the House, followed by the hon. Daniel), I feel it fitting on my part that I member for York (Mr. Crocket), and should say a few words in regard to this with tears in his voice he repeats the cries wreck. Representing the county in which of the two Scotch boys who met a watery these waters are, and in which the Old Pro- grave. One of them, he said, in his last prietor ledge is situated, I feel that it is due moments, as he sank below the water exto my constituency that I should say a claimed in agony: Mother, save us. But few words on this subject. The hon. memas a medical man, has my hon. friend not ber for the city of St. John, followed by the often heard that cry for help from patients hon. member for the county of York (Mr. drifting towards the rocks of Eternity? Crocket), would lead this House to believe And because he as medical adviser could that almost a murder had been laid at the not save them, are we expected to hold doors of the Department of Marine and him responsible for their death? I think Fisheries. There is nothing whatever in it would better become the hon. gentleman the evidence to justify such blame being and the hon. member for York (Mr. placed upon the department. I think the Crocket) to work for the improvement of blame for the wreck should be rather placed the harbour of St. John and the better upon the captain and the other officers of equipment of the Bay of Fundy with aids the ship. Any one who looks at the map to navigation than try to arouse prejuof the coast of the Bay of Fundy, with dice and belittle their own port approaches its high tides and the small opening at the as they are doing. I would suggest to the mouth, will understand that there is natur- Minister of Marine that instead of trying ally a great current in that water. He will to establish a lighthouse as requested by also see that from Brier Island light to the the hon. member for St. John, he should light at Gannet rock, two of the best lights have a submarine bell, placed in 10 fathin this country, there is a breadth of oms of water near the Old Proprietor nearly thirty miles of water, in which this ledge and an electric light on the spindle REVISED EDITION. on said ledge, connected and worked from White Head Island, by the proper cable. This in my opinion, and that of many living near to this dangerous reef, would remove all danger to vessels or steamers at this point. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. This subject has been so thoroughly debated that very little remains to be said. I do not think it will do for the minister to take the ground that he and his department are absolutely absolved by any amount of censure cast upon the captain and the officers who are no longer alive to defend themselves. Whether or not the compass was out, whether or not the captain took sufficient soundings, it is perfectly clear that this wreck would not have occurred and these lives would not have been lost if that light had been in proper working order. I do not think any one who has listened to the minister and who has read the reports in the public press could entertain the slightest doubts on that point. True the gentleof inquiry took the ground that no great reliance should be placed on these floating lights and Captain Gillies, the superintendent of the Donaldson line, retorted that certainly no one would rely in the future upon floating lights in Canadian waters. But it seems rather peculiar that the course of events should have been what it was. This light became extinct about the 22nd of January, 1909. man who acted as chairman of this board a most important advance. To such an extent did this go that on January 31, 1906, the deputy minister of the department gave a certificate to the United States government with regard to them. According to the report of the Civil Service Commission, that certificate was in these words: This department has had in the past considerable difficulty in carrying out its policy and has taken great pains to test and investiof providing an efficient buoy lighting system gate the Willson buoy, with the result that it has been fully adopted; and the department purchases no other types. It is regarded as a distinct improvement on all others which the department has used. I can therefore recommend it to your Board. recommendation of this buoy from the De- Per Mr. BRODEUR. I could not state exactly, I suppose two or three years ago. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. I suppose it had been tested before being placed there, yet it goes out and as I understand the whistA notice was sent ling apparatus also becomes defective and not apparently in the ordinary course for a period of nine months both those deSO that it would reach the mariners fects remain absolutely without any -but was pubilished in the local news-remedy or correction. I would not say that papers in the city of St. John. I do not know whether Captain Gillies was correct in the observation he made that no navigator would hereafter rely on our fioating lights, but I did observe that in the course of the inquiry he said that no official notice had been given the mariners with regard to it. The minister will know best whether or not that statement was correct. Capt. Lugar, the chairman, remarked: But the fact that the light was not burning was published in all the Halifax newspapers. To which Captain Gillies replied: Perhaps. but not in the official notification issued to the mariners by the government. Even if it had been published in those official notifications, one would suppose that the department, finding that the light could not be replaced within reasonable time, would have given timely notice in some official communication so that it would have reached the mariners; but for ten months that light was absolutely extinct and no more notice given of that important fact than the notice published in the local newspapers. this is an efficient buoy for the purpose unless it is of such a character that it can be repaired within a reasonable time and unless the materials and means for repairing it within a reasonable time are available, because, as Captain Gillies very well says, it would be far better to have no light at all than to place a light there and allow it to go out without giving any notice to mariners, the natural reliance on the light, operates as a complete and perfect trap to navigators who are traversing that portion of the Bay of Fundy. I am not very much concerned with the fine-spun theories about the compass which have been enlarged upon by the minister and to which so much importance has been attached by Capt. Lugar. I think it would not be possible to arrive at any correct conclusion on that subject unless we had the evidence of the captain and officers of the ship who are now no longer here to testify. As far as the taking of soundings is concerned, it is evident from the testimony that soundings were taken as late as 11.30 o'clock that night. These new gas buoys were heralded by Mr. BRODEUR. Some soundings were the Department of Marine and Fisheries as taken during the day on the south coast of Nova Scotia, but he did not take any soundings when near the rocks. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. Soundings were taken every half hour according to the evidence of one of the officers, he himself reading the log after each sounding. A sounding was taken about 11.30 p.m., when the depth of water was 100 fathoms. Mr. BRODEUR. They continued two hours after that without soundings. Mr. R. L. BORDEN. Those soundings were taken at least as late as 11.30 p.m., and it would seem inconceivable under the circumstances, with the condition of the weather and the position in which the vessel was, that the captain would cease taking soundings when he had taken them every half hour up to that time. I I see that Captain Lugar has rejected what would seem to me to be important evidence. On the dead body of one of the seamen, who was steering the ship, was found a memorandum indicating the course he was steering, a written statement of the course he was directed to steer. would consider that good evidence, I think it would be received in a court of law and why Captain Lugar, chairman of the board, should have seen fit to reject that evidence Further than that, is not very clear to me. counsel for the steamship company asked especially that as the causes of the wreck were being investigated the Court of Inquiry should be adjourned to St. John, N.B., where men familiar with all the local conditions might be summoned to give evidence in order to make the result of the investigation more accurate and more clear. I do not see why that course was not pursued. The evidence of the survivors of the crew had been taken; the object was to discover the cause of the accident and the wreck, and when counsel for the steamship company asked that the court should be adjourned to a locality near where the accident had occurred, where men familiar with these tides which have been enlarged upon, men familiar with all the difficulties of navigation, could be summoned and might have thrown some light on the subject, the chairman airily put the request aside and said there was no occasion to take any such course. Does the minister approve of that course? Does he not think that some light might have been thrown on the circumstances attending this wreck by adopting that course? I am putting altogether aside the conduct of those on shore and dealing only with the causes of the wreck. It does seem clear that some light might have been thrown on the circumstances of the case by calling men familiar with the difficulties and the navigation of those waters. The minister has spoken of insurance rates and has deprecated in a mild way the discussion of these matters in the House of Commons. The tone and spirit in which my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Daniel) dicated a sincere desire on his part to do introduced this subject in the House inonly that which was in the public interest and in no way to create prejudice or cast discredit on the navigation of these waters. As far as that is concerned, I think the circumstances brought out in the inquiry, the fact that this buoy remained ten months unlighted and with its whistling apparatus out of order, would do much more to cast discredit on navigation in the Bay of Fundy than anything that could possibly be said in this House. I do trust that the minister will not permit the matter to remain in its present position, that a further inquiry will be had and that he will be able to come down to the House later on and give us some asthese buoys. One of the chief causes he surance as to the continuous efficiency of has urged to the House in defence of the inconceivable delay of nine months in repairing this buoy is the fact that so many other buoys had got out of order and gone adrift. Something must be wrong. the buoys are not adapted for the waters of that coast, cannot properly be secured, or otherwise inefficient, or is some neglect on the part of some official of the department. The two things cannot stand together. If the buoys are of the proper type, if they can be made fast, if they are efficient and if the officials of the department do their duty then no such condition of affairs could have occurred in are Either else there those waters as that which the minister himself has exposed to the House this evening in making his defence in this matter. I sincerely trust that some further ation will be given and that those who are inquiry will be held and further explaninterested in the navigation of Canadian waters will be able to understand that the conditions which have arisen in this matcourse which has been pursued and the ter are not likely to occur again. Mr. DANIEL. I have listened very carefully to the speech of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and I cannot at all agree that he has made it clear that the acting agent did his duty in this matter. He read a long report from the acting agent. But that report, as I understood it, and as I heard it read, only accounted for four or five months of the year, and stated what he was busy about during those months. But there was a long hiatus between the end of the four months and the end of the nine months. What was he doing the other five months after he had been so busy during these first four months? I also noticed the fact that when the Fairway buoy at Yarmouth got adrift he notified the Board of Trade. Why, Sir, when this buoy went wrong, if the agent of the department, or the department itself, had taken the action which they should have taken, and had sent an official notification to mariners, then I say the negligence of the department in taking nine months and more to remedy the defects of this buoy, would not have been so reprehensible, in fact would not have been reprehensible to any extent, because they would have discharged their duty and notified the mariners, sea captains and others that when they came into these waters they could not expect to find that Old Proprietor buoy. Mr. BRODEUR. The acting agent did better than that, he notified the owners, the agents of the 'Hestia.' tion. Far better to have no buoys at all on those exposed positions than to expect them and then find nothing there when you get there. That is the complaint we have to make. Now before I sit down I want to refer to a remark made by the hon. member for Charlotte (Mr. Todd). The hon. member for Charlotte reproached me because I made a reference to a disaster in the Bay of Fundy and had drawn the attention of the country to the fact that the Department of Marine had been remiss in its duty in looking after the lights at the Old Proprietor rock. Sir, when he was saying that he reminded me of a bird, I believe a very stupid bird, an inhabitant of South Africa. That bird, when it is pursued and wants to hide itself, Mr. DANIEL. He gave verbal notice to simply buries its head in the bush or in the agent of the Donaldson line. Mr. PUGSLEY Of this very line. Mr DANIEL. Yes, of this very line, in January, nine months ago. And what was that notification? A notification to the effect that the buoy was adrift, or the light was out, and that the defect would be remedied as soon as possible. So when it comes to the fall of the year, October or November, had not those captains, those mariners, those navigators, a right to suppose that the defect had been remedied long ago? That is the point of the whole matter the fact that not only was this defect allowed to continue, but that those who ought to have been acquainted with the fact were not put in possession of it, or still worse, that the notification given was a deceptive one, as it only stated that the buoy was adrift, or the light out, and that the defect would be remedied as soon as possible. Now there is one point in the minister's speech that I was glad to hear, when he says that he intends to have a further investigation. I think it is absolutely necessary to have a further investigation, and I hope that investigation will be thorough and rigid, and cover all these points with regard to which evidence is SO necessary, namely, the need of life saving stations and crews, of life boats, the quality of life boat and all those needs in the Bay of Fundy. The minister also spoke about the difficulty of keeping the buoys in a certain place in the Bay of Fundy, and he said he was considering whether the department ought to continue to keep those buoys going. My opinion, formed from the evidence that was given at this investigation, is that it is far better to have no buoys at all than to have buoys listed and put on the chart, and then when you come to the place where you expect to find them, they are either adrift, or there is no light, or whistle or anything of that kind. Such a thing as that is simply a lure to destruc That the ground, and thinks that because it cannot see any one no one can see it. appears to me to be the position the hon. member for Charlotte would like me to take. He wants me to say nothing about this, to conceal it, and he thinks that then nobody else will know anything about it. But if we were to take that course the defect would never be remedied. That is not the position I take. I take the position that the proper course to take under these circumstances is to make this thing so public that it will never occur again, that the department will act in a more rigid and conscientious manner in future than it has been doing in the past, and then the navigation up and down the bay to and from the city I have the honour to represent, will be safer than it ever has been in the past. Motion agreed to. TRADE MISSION TO JAPAN OF W. T. R. PRESTON. Mr. F. D. MONK (Jacques Cartier), moved: For a copy of all correspondence, petitions, reports and written representations in the hands of the government, or any department of the same, concerning the commercial or trade mission to Japan of W. T. R. Preston, as Canadian Trade Commissioner for Canada, and of the report of said commissioner, as well as all other reports and despatches rethe execution of said mission. ceived by the government in connection with He said: The object of this motion is to bring before the House all the correspondence that has taken place between the government and Mr. Preston, as well as between the government and any persons in Japan, or between the government and the British ambassador, or any representative of other governments in Japan, during the execution of the mission confided to Mr. Preston by the government. I think that correspondence will prove very interesting relations with occidental countries all over deavoured to establish direct relations between the commercial men of Japan and Canada he became, so to speak, the butt of the attacks of these commission houses and, as far as my information goes, these commission houses, being confined principally to English and American firms, solicited the intervention of the British ambassador to cause Mr. Preston to cease his campaign. I understand that the correspondence will show that. Correspon dence took place between His Majesty's representative in Japan and the Canadian government either directly or through the Home government. I am not sure as to that, but it has been stated in the papers that the claim was made on behalf of the English commission houses that Mr. Pres ton was interfering with their business, that he was disturbing commercial security and solidity in Japan and that it was desirable that he should be recalled. I think that is a point of very great importance upon which the House should be very fully informed. I have reason to believe that the objections from the commission houses, not only the English commission houses, but others as well, were forwarded to the Canadian government or to the imperial government, to be, by them, communicated to the Canadian government. My hon. friend the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) will probably know whether these allegations are well founded or not, but steps of various kinds were taken in order to secure the recall of Mr. Preston and his mission there was not only interfered with but was nullified by the influence that I have just referred to. This information has come to me from the newspapers and I think it is very important that the House should see that correspondence that we may and what his reports stated as to the posknow exactly what Mr. Preston did there sibilities of establishing direct trade communication with that nation, because there is no doubt that we have an immense possible commerce not only with Japan but with all those Asiatic countries. We are therefore interested to know why that mission was brought abruptly to a close and what was the result of the mission itself. I think it is even more important why we should know why that mission came to an end, what were exactly the influences which were brought to bear, the representations that were made against or for Mr. Preston by the associated interests, by those commission houses established there and on his behalf by other commercial bodies, chambers of commerce and Japanese interested in his mission. I think the idea is covered by my motion. I have prepared a motion somewhat longer but I mislaid it. The motion that I had originally prepared after I had seen this matter formulated in the newspapers was to this effect: Copy of the correspondence between the Department of Trade and Commerce and the late Commissioner of Trade in Japan, Mr. Preston, on all subjects arising out of the controversy between Mr. Preston and foreign commission merchants in Japan during and subsequent to his stay there. Copy of correspondence between the government of Canada and the British Ambassador in Japan respecting or in any way relating to Mr. Preston's appointment to Japan, the discharge of his duties there or connected with the controversy arising in Japan from Mr. Preston's advocacy of direct trade between Canadians and Japanese. Copy of correspondence between the government of Canada, the British and the United States and the German Ambassadors and Mr. Preston on subjects growing out of the advocacy of direct trade between Canada and Japan. Copy of all correspondence, loose paper clippings, memorials from Japanese or For |