much in the way of pious affirmation, that I am anxious we should do something of a practical character. Sir WILFRID LAURIER. It can be passed if there is a majority. For my part I must vote against it. Sir JOSEPH WARD. To do any good we would require to be unanimous about it. Dr. SMARTT. Yes, I suppose so. Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL. It is not much good to have a resolution at all if we cannot be unanimous. The CHAIRMAN. I think we had better not proceed any further just now. Sir WILFRID LAURIER. We, of the different dominions beyond the seas, have tried to be unanimous up to the present time. I am sorry to say this is a question upon which we could not be unanimous. Therefore, Dr. Smartt can move it if he chooses or withdraw it, but if he presses it I should have to vote against it. Dr. SMARTT. I am absolutely in the hands of the conference. I do not want to press a resolution that is not likely to meet with the general approval of practically everybody on the conference, especially a resolution of this particular character. We might, perhaps, let it stand over until the next sitting. Between this and Tuesday I may be able to modify it in some way to meet Sir Wilfrid's view. Nothing further was done and that represents the situation as far as naval defence is concerned. Other questions of more or less importance were discussed, but I have not time to refer to any except the trade question With reference to the trade question, I will give the summary in the resolutions which after a debate were passed. I may say that the debate was an extended and a very able one, and all views were placed fully before the conference. The result was that the resolutions of 1902 were reaffirmed, with the representatives of the British government dissenting in so far as the implication that it is necessary or expedient to alter the fiscal system of the United Kingdom. Those resolutions I read in discussing the conference of 1902 and it is not necessary at this point to recapitulate them. The ground that was taken was ground that had been strongly affirmed in 1902 and the conference did not see that they could go beyond that although several members of the conference were strongly of the opinion that a forward step by resolution, if it could possibly be agreed upon, ought to be made. A resolution was passed providing: That all doubts should be removed as to the rights of the self-governing dependencies to make reciprocal and preferential fiscal agreements with each other and with the United Kingdom, and further, that such right should not be fettered by imperial treaties or conventions without their concur rence. Among other subjects taken up were in ternational penny postage and imperial cable communication, and then, towards the latter part of the conference, the All Red Route resolution which we have already had discussed in parliament and to which I need not further refer. Such, in brief, were the results of the conference of 1907. Now to conclude: We have had conferences commenced in the way I have stated, begun in 1887, repeated in 1894, 1897, 1902 and 1907; and this latest conference in 1909, of which, as it is fresh before us, I should say nothing at the present time. No one will doubt, I think, that these conferences have grown in public commendation, and they have grown in their sphere of action, grown in their usefulness, grown in the greater knowledge which public men of the empire have been able to form of the different questions affecting others than their own countries, grown in that personal contact and sympathy which arises therefrom, and the mutually good understanding which takes place as a result of those conferences, that which is not by any means the least important of the benefits that have been conferred; until to-day they have taken a character of absolute permanency, with their own secretarial staff, the link being thus found for their continuity and their action. They constitute in fact the only imperial parliament that we have, and a regal and worthy imperial parliament it is, in its wayconsultative simply and solely, advisory one with the other, without any functions, legislative or executive, but still a parliament composed of the empire's strongest and best men from the different portions of the empire, collected on the basis of popular selection, and so supposed to be representative in the very highest way. It is this quadrennial parliament, which may meet more frequently, which has grown up almost without our noticing it, which has gradually taken to itself power and influence without any legislative or executive character, but influencing the very centre, and from the very centre the very outside limits of the empire, a parliament which draws the great men, the chief men of the empire, together at stated times for the development of plans, the consideration of sentiments. Therefore it must have a tremendous effect in coming to wise decisions, in avoiding complications which otherwise would be sure to take place, and in leading in of certitude and of reasonable safety. It a general sense the empire along the lines may be that we shall never have any other imperial parliament. I cannot say. In the meantime I, for one, tent with this, and I hope that in the future as in the past, the same able contingents may form the delegates and representatives to these conferences, that the same unanimity and wisdom may am con characterize their discussions and their documents or papers, in connection ton. with conclusions. History not long in the fu- charges of malfeasance of office made against ture will write many pages about this new the officer commanding No. 5 company, Canaaddition to the British constitution and dian Army Service Corps, or the officer second the British system; and this history will in command of this company.-Mr. Worthingnot be written with the first pages that For a return showing the total number of are made. I for my part look to it, how- incubators and brooders, respectively, importever it may expand, gradually or more ed into Canada from the United States during rapidly, as the one medium of the exposi- the fiscal year ending March 31, 1909, and tion of the best and strongest sentiments the total cost of each.-Mr. White. that prevail in the empire. Rt. Hon. Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Prime Minister). My hon. friend has presented the observations with which he has favoured the House in the manner that he promised us at the outset, that is to say, in no partizan spirit. If he will permit me to say so, I offer him my hearty commendation. The only observation I will make is that he has presented the conclusions of the different conferences that have taken place in a very fair and accurate manner. Motion agreed to. NEW MEMBER. Mr. SPEAKER informed the House that he had received from the Clerk of the House a certificate of the election and re turn of Duncan C. Ross, Esq., for the electoral district of West Middlesex. MEMBER INTRODUCED. Duncan Campbell Ross, member elect for the district of West Middlesex, introducd by Sir Wilfrid Laurier and Mr. Mackenzie King. REPRESENTATION OF OTTAWA AND Mr. JAMESON. I wish to ask the Rt. Hon. Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) if he has vet decided whether he will elect to sit for East Quebec or Ottawa? Sir WILFRID LAURIER. No, I have not yet decided. For a return showing approximately the amount of revenue collected by the government between the 1st January, 1908, and the 1st November, 1909, in the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan, respectively, on account of payments for coal lands, coal royaltimber lands, ties, bonuses and rental on timber dues, hay lands, grazing lands, irrigation areas, school lands, minerals, water powers, stone quarrying lands, Indian lands, or on account of any natural resources within each of the above provinces.-Mr. McCarthy, For a copy of all letters, correspondence and complaints, or other papers, from Indians or others regarding the manner in which the St. Peter's Indians have been treated, relating to lands allotted to them by the government in consideration of the surrender of the St. Peter's reserve.-Mr. Bradbury. For a return showing the total amount paid by the government in each year since 1896, for all printing, advertising and lithographing done outside of the Government Printing Bureau; the total amount so paid by each department of the government for such purposes during each year; the names and addresses of each individual, firm or corporation to whom any such moneys have been so paid, and the total amount paid to each such individual, firm or corporation in each year since 1896. What portion of the said sums, if any, so paid since 1896 was expended after public advertisement, tender and contract, to whom such tenders were awarded, whether to the lowest tender in each case, what portion was expended otherwise than by public advertisement, tender and contract, and to whom it was paid in each instance.-Mr. Armstrong. SUPPLY-COMMITTEE ON FORESTRY. Mr. FIELDING moved that the House go into Committee of Supply. Mr. FOSTER. Before the House goes into Committee of Supply, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) if he has yet found the tracing that was to form a part of the report of the Committee on Forestry? Mr. FISHER. Yes, and instructions have been given to have it reproduced so that each member will have a copy as soon as possible. Motion agreed to, and House went into Committee of Supply. Department Indian. Affairs-salaries, $111 $25. Mr. BLAIN. I see a very large number of items for expenses in connection with the payment of annuities to Indians. for two additional clerks in subdivision B Would the minister give us a statement of the third division at $500 each, and the as to what the total amount of expenses is appointment of an actuarv in subdivision B in connection with paying annuities to In- of the first division at $2,100. These are dians? for the annuities branch. Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Minister of the Interior). The information asked by my hon. friend is of a character that is not compiled in that form in our records and will require a general search through the records in order to procure it. I will have to ask my hon. friend for time to prepare the information that he asks. Mr. BLAIN. Every year we pay large amounts in travelling expenses, railway fares and pullman cars to distribute this money. Could this money not be sent to the local banks, without the necessity of a special messenger and the agents pay the annuities? Mr. OLIVER. The course suggested by my hon. friend is followed so far as possible, but in connection with the treaties in northern Ontario, northern Alberta, northern Saskatchewan, and the. territory north of Manitoba, the treaty money must be carried by an officer whose duty it is to pay it out, and as he must be accompanied by a party the expense is very considerable. Mr. BLAIN. Would the minister furnish a statement of the amount of money carried in this way and the total expense of distributing it. Mr. OLIVER. Yes, but it will take some time to prepare. Mr. FOSTER. Is Mr. Laird employed in the Indian Department here? Mr. FOSTER. Is he a civil servant? Mr. OLIVER. Yes, in division A of the first division. Roval Northwest Mounted Police-Salaries, $18,425. Sir WILFRID LAURIER. There are no changes in the staff; the increases are simply the statutory increases. Mr. DANIEL. Is it the intention to continue the Northwest Mounted Police at the present numerical strength? Sir WILFRID LAURIER. This is the vote for civil government and that information would be given more properly on the vote for the Northwest Mounted Police, but I may say to my hon. friend that while we are diminishing the force in the Yukon, it is our intention to maintain the strength of the force as it is at present. Mr. FOSTER. I think this annuities branch will provoke some discussion. I would like to have a full explanation in regard to it. Item allowed to stand. Public works chargeable to Capital-Ottawa Astronomical Observatory-additional buildings, etc., $11,000. Hon. WM. PUGSLEY (Minister of Public Works). This is asked to make provision for the completion of the residence for the chief astronomer, also two azimuth huts in connection with the observatory, applied for by the Department of the Interior. Mr. CROCKET. What is the total cost? Mr. PUGSLEY. For the residence, $17,000 and for the two azimuth huts, $6,000, making a total of $23,041.49. According to the chief architect's estimate, $1,291.71 additional will be required. Mr. DANIEL. This is just for the building, not for any furniture in it? Mr. PUGSLEY. It includes the electric wiring and fixtures, heating and boiler, but not the furniture. I have made no provision for the furniture. I have no intimation from the Interior Department that we⚫ shall be asked to do the furnishing. I would think that would be done by the chief astronomer himself. Mr. FOSTER. What is the building made of? Mr. PUGSLEY. It is a brick and stone building, two stories, with a wooden attic and a concrete and stone basement. Ten ders were called for, and the lowest tender was $12,300, which was accepted. Mr. FOSTER. How comes it to be $17,000 Department of Trade and Commerce-Sal- now? aries, $41,887.50. Mr. PUGSLEY. This figure of $12,300 Sir WILFRID LAURIER. There are no does not include the cost of heating and increases with the exception of provision boiler, electric wiring and fixtures, side walks, fencing, contingencies and superintendence. Mr. CROCKET. Were tenders called for the works not covered by the contract? Mr. PUGSLEY. No tenders have yet been called for these. Mr. FOSTER. How much is estimated for the installation of the heating apparatus? Mr. PUGSLEY. $1,500. Office fixtures and electric wiring $1,000, sidewalks and fencing $500, contingencies and superintendence, $1,700. According to the present practice of the department, tenders will be called for electric wiring and fixtures, also for heating and boiler. Mr. SPROULE. I am not furnishing any Mr. DANIEL. That is just for the resi- argument. If the hon. minister chooses to dence of the astronomer royal? be facetious, he should have some better grounds. I was asking for information which he is here to give. I wanted to know if he would not be called on to furnish that residence, and he did not give a definite answer. Mr. PUGSLEY. Yes, for the chief astronomer. Mr. DANIEL. Does it usually take as much as $1,000 to establish light and fixtures in an ordinary house of that sort? Mr. PUGSLEY. That is the amount the architect estimates. Mr. PUGSLEY. My present view is not to furnish it. I did not intend to be facetious, but I understood my hon. friend to urge that the astronomer was as much entitled to have his house furnished as the Mr. TURRIFF. What is the total cost officers at the experimental farm. If he of the building complete? Mr. PUGSLEY. $17,041, including every thing. Mr. FOSTER. Who made the requisi tion for the house? did not intend to say that, I regret that I misunderstood him. I have informed the committee that I have not been asked to furnish the residence and see no reason why I should furnish it. not. Mr. SPROULE. It was the hon. genMr. PUGSLEY. The Minister of the In- tleman's indefinite answer which induced terior. me to ask a further question. He said he was not aware the house was to be furnMr. TURRIFF. I do not intend to criti-ished, and I think it desirable that we cise the expenditure on that particular should have now definitely the intention of house because it is not very much out of the government, whether to furnish it or the way, but I want to point out that very expensive buildings appear to have been put up for officers in connection with the Mr. PUGSLEY. I thought I was as deMilitia Department. There is not a min-finite as I could be. The question of furnister living in a house which cost as much money as that, if you leave the site out of consideration. It would be well to go a little easier in expending public money on houses for government officials. ishing has not been brought before me and I do not see why the department should furnish it. Mr. BLAIN. Did the hon. minister not say to the committee last year that the Mr. CROCKET. Is this a new depar- government did not intend to furnish the ture? Mr. PUGSLEY. It is a special case and was fully explained last session. The chief astronomer is required to live close to the observatory, and there was no building close by that could be obtained. Mr. FOSTER. What is his salary? Mr. PUGSLEY. I do not know. That is in the Interior Department. house? Mr. PUGSLEY. I do not remember. Mr. BOYCE. Were the estimates for this house prepared under the instructions of the minister? Mr. PUGSLEY. They were prepared by the chief architect in the usual way. There were no special instructions as to the exact form or detail. REVISED EDITION. Mr. BOYCE. Last session the minister got into a rather penitent frame of mind with regard to expenditure. I have recollections of his saying, almost with tears, that he was obliged to cut down some of the estimates for Public Works in order to keep them well within the revenue, which then was not as bounding as he would have liked to see it. It does seem now rather extraordinary that as high as $17,000 should be expended on a house for the astronomer. It is rather contradictory to find that the hon. minister, while deprecating extravagance, should agree to build so extravagant a house for a public servant. No doubt by the time it is completed it will cost $20,000 and possibly more. Mr. FOSTER. I am surprised at the mildness of the criticism by the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Turriff) but I was still more surprised that he should have given expression to any criticism. If we just had about once a week some gentleman on that side, who knows just as well as men on this side, who would get up and condemn these extravagancies, even as mildly as my hon. friend has done, we would have a change that would save the country millions of dollars. I invite my hon. friend to do this thing oftener and more strongly, and he will find that he will do his country extraordinary good service. This expenditure is simply outrageous. There is no possible justification for it. I go into the homes of people all through this city and find gentlemen and their families living in good homes, which cost from eight to ten thousand dollars and many less. What reason is there that this official should have a $20,000 house built for him by the government. He would not build such a house for himself. The minister says he is not going to furnish this house, but is the disposal of that in his own hands? He was simply asked by the Minister of the Interior to build this residence. I do not know whether responsibility for the extravagant sum rests on the Minister of the Interior or the Minister of Public Works and his department but the sum is extravagant. Is it the intention of the government to furnish the house? Mr. PUGSLEY. It is not the intention to furnish the house. In saying that, I am speaking for the government. I do not quite agree with my hon. friend as to the price at which suitable residences can be purchased in Ottawa. I looked around with a view to purchasing a residence, and although I am not extravagant in my tastes, I did not find that I could get a fairly good residence for less than $20,000, and the result has been that I have not felt myself able to purchase a residence so far in the city of Ottawa and I am living in somewhat humble apartments. A fairly good residence ranges from $15,000 to $30,000, some of them more than that. The chief astronomer is a high official of the government, and it having been decided to erect a residence for him, close to the observatory, it does not seem unreasonable that he should be given a residence suitable to the position which he occupies, and a residence of such style as he would be likely to live in if he were permitted to reside in the city of Ottawa. Mr. BOYCE. What is the salary of the chief astronomer? Mr. PUGSLEY. That rests with the Interior Department, and is to be found in the Auditor General's Report. Mr. BOYCE. I understand the salary is $3,000. Is he to pay any rental? Mr. CROCKET. Was his salary increased in the general increases last year? Mr. PUGSLEY. Unless he had reached the maximum of his class, I presume the increase would apply to him. Mr. CROCKET. Has an estimate of the rental value of the property been made? Mr. PUGSLEY. No, but it could be easily figured, I suppose, at six per cent on the cost. Mr. CROCKET. So it amounts to ano ther increase to his salary? I was amused at the minister's statement that he was not extravagant in his tastes. Of course, all we have to judge by is the minister's use of the public moneys of the country. I may call the attention of the House to the fact that on one occasion it cost the government $600 to maintain the minister here at Ottawa for one week. Mr. PUGSLEY. One cannot help admiring the fertile imagination of my hon. friend. If his ability to present the facts were as great as his ability to draw on his imagination he certainly would be a wonderful man. Mr. CROCKET. I may say that I am not drawing on my imagination at all. I have the documents at hand, and I can turn them up very readily, which will fully substantiate the statement I made that on one occasion he charged the province of New Brunswick $600, if it was not $800, as travelling expenses on a trip to Ottawa which did not extend beyond one week. |