It is

the trade and commerce, not only of Que- provinces to come together, it having been bec itself, but of Ontario and the other made, I believe, a sine qua non that this western provinces as well. It is the sum-railway should be built to connect the marimer gate of commerce_from the west and time provinces with old Canada. has to be improved. I do not know what the population of Montreal is at present, but I think it will be found at the next census to touch the half million mark. And I judge by the progress of the past few years, the time is not far distant when it will touch a million, and I hope that time will come soon. But in order to bring about the growth and expansion and consequent increase of population in the province of Quebec and particularly in the city of Montreal, this parliament had to spend, and rightly spend, enormous sums in order to create the channels and arteries by which trade and commerce would come. Already in improving the harbour of Montreal, some $12,000,000 have been spent, and it is in contemplation in the course of a few years to spend $18,000,000 more in order to make its harbour facilities equal to those of any port in the world. And it is perfectly right and proper that that should be done, but it means lot of money. When we came into confed

a

eration in 1873, the St. Lawrence was

was

true that this railway greatly benefits the maritime provinces. But it has been an Quebec and the provinces further west. enormous benefit also to the province of Long before other railways were in existmanufactures of the west to the maritime ence it afforded a means of carrying the ada generally admit that the markets of provinces, and the manufacturers of Canthe maritime provinces are among the best they have. It still does that. Of course, this road not built solely for the benefit of Quebec or of the other provinces. What I desire to point out is not so much what the object is as these improvements of which I have spoken what the result has been. The effect of is to greatly increase the opportunities of employment in the great city of Montreal and so to increase greatly the population of that city and other parts of the province of Quebec. Montreal contains thousands and probably hundreds of thousands of people who but for these improvements in a great river but you could not get ships transportation would never have gone to drawing such draft of water up that river help in building up the prosperity and the as now go up. You had to dredge it from population of that great city. end to end and make it so that large ships And now we have the great railways could get up in order that the trade and coming down from the west, the commerce, which naturally belongs to Can-Canadian Pacific railway and the new ada, should find its way through this great Transcontinental. There is no question but Canadian port, and not through ports for- that the Transcontinental will open up vast eign to Canada. The consequence is territories in the north of Quebec as well have spent enormously to dredge and im- as Ontario and will gradually draw a large prove that great waterway. You are going population to that region, with the result to make it practically a great canal. You that the unit of representation will rise. have it down to something like 30 feet but of course, we are all glad of these prospecthat is not enough. The hon. Minister of tive additions to our population. I do not Marine will have to undertake more work. believe in a sectional view of these matters, Thirty feet is nothing extraordinary now. for a benefit to one province is a benefit to He will have to go on and deepen it to 40 the whole of Canada. Still, the result is feet, and that it should be done in the that, through these enormous expenditures, interests of Canada as a whole. expenditures made not only by the present It is necessary, in order to bind the parts government but by the several governments of Canada more closely together and to keep that preceded it, and made in pursuit of a in our own channels the commerce which well-defined and laudable policy carried out belongs to us. Therefore, so far as I am by all governments, which, though they may concerned, as one member of this House, have differed in details and in questions of although it is no particular advantage to degree have always favoured the carrying me or my constituency, I recognize the need out of this policy of development-populaof that work and am just as strong in sup- tion in the pivotal provinces has been inport of it as any gentleman living in Mon- creased and the unit of representation treal itself. It is true this process of im- raised. Nor is the work finished, it goes proving transportation develops other parts on and will go on. There is the territory of the country than the province of Que-of Ungava, which is not now a part of the bec, but I confine myself to a consideration of the effect upon Quebec because that is the pivotal province. Enormous sums have been spent in other ways which must benefit the city of Montreal and Quebec generally. Consider the effect of one of our earliest works, the Intercolonial. That railway was built, of course, as a part of the compact of confederation, to induce the four

we

province of Quebec, but probably will be. This will mean a further addition to the population of Quebec. It is true there are few people in Ungava now, but we know enough of the resources of Ungava to lead us to believe that many will be attracted to that territory, and, in speaking of this matter I think of the future as well as the present. This will further raise the unit

on

of representation, making our chances o 25,000 odd, but take the case of the city of regaining our lost representation very poo Montreal. I do not know what is the popuindeed. The further improvement of ou ation of its several constituencies, but I canals, and especially the enlargement o think I am safe in saying that none of them the Welland and other canals, will add t is lower than 40,000, which would be 15,000 the result that we have already seen. So more than the unit. I am not sure, Mr. it is a rather forlorn prospect that is pre Speaker, but that your own constituency sented to us, with this great province o has a population a good deal greater than Quebec growing by leaps and bounds with the unit. The same applies to the city of the result that our representation is goins Toronto and other portions of Canada. The down. Even the regular public expendi reason for these variations is that the local ture is having the effect of promoting the conditions are taken into consideration. It opening up of the west and developing trade is obvious that when you deal with a city which ultimately benefits the city of Mon- population, concentrated on a few square treal. As you fill up the west you bring miles, those people can make their public nearer the time when hundreds of millions wants felt much more readily than can a of dollars worth of grain, besides other pro- scattered population such as that of your ducts of enormous value, will be annually constituency or mine. The question of reproduced for export, thus giving still more moteness also is taken into consideration, employment to the people of that province and I have no doubt that it was this elein which is our greatest port and which ment that caused the representatives of the is the unit of representation, and so Dominion government, away back in 1873, increasing the population of the pro- to concede to British Columbia a represenvince of Quebec. This great west, tation much greater than the application the other, takes people from us. of the principle of representation by popuMany of those who were constituents of lation would have given. The system of members from Prince Edward Island are representation by population has been now in the west. If the Prince Edward ignored in the United States in relation to Island voters in that country were to throw the Senate. It was applied in the case of their influence all on one side they would the House of representatives, but the frameasily influence an election. I believe that ers of the Constitution, desiring to protect in half of the constituencies west of the the smaller and weaker states, provided Great Lakes electors from Prince Edward that each state should have the same repreIsland hold the balance of electoral sentation in the Senate regardless of popupower. There are hundreds of teach-lation. I do not know that the Senate of ers alone, now engaged in training the United States has quite fulfilled the the children of the west, who came expectations of those who created it, but from Prince Edward Island. All these, I that is neither here nor there: the idea was am sure, have a warm spot in their hearts to give each state equal representation in for their old sea-girt home. And if my the Senate in order to protect the smaller. words should reach them, as I hope they It is not necessary for me to go at greater will reach some of them, I am sure that length into this question. I think that I they will sympathize with me in desiring have said enough to bring the matter fairto see the representation of Prince Edward ly before the House; and I think the subIsland restored to that which she originally ject is of sufficient importance to justify me in so doing. I have not the acquaintance with the conditions prevailing in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick when they entered confederation that I have of those that prevailed and prevail in my own province. But I have no doubt that hon. members from those provinces who have the facts at their fingers' ends will be quite prepared to advance arguments in support of the restoration of their former representation. With these remarks, Mr. Speaker, and thanking the members of the House for their courtesy in listening to me on a subject which may appear to some of them trite, I beg to move the resolution standing in my name.

had.

The objection raised to the plea of Prince Edward Island in this matter is the old cry representation by population.' That is a most excellent general rule. But, like all general rules, it has its exceptions, and the exception proves the rule. When British Columbia entered confederation an exception was made. They drafted their terms better than we did, inserting the word increased' when we said read justed.' They came into the Union with six representatives in this House, and at that time, I think, they had scarcely white population enough to make up the number of the unit of representation. They have continued to grow. But what I point out is that the principle was recognized that special conditions should be recognized in this matter-the principle of representation by population was not carried out in its enti rety. Nor do we carry it out with unifor mity to-day. The unit of population is

At six o'clock House took recess.

After Recess.

House resumed at eight o'clock.

Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance). The motion to which my hon. friend

657

NOVEMBER 29, 1909

into committee to consider the following great the fines may be. imposed by regulation. proposed resolution:

Resolved, that it is expedient to amend the Manitoba Grain Act, chapter 83 of the Revised Statutes, 1906, as follows:

By repealing subsection 5 of section 17, subsection 5 of section 47, and subsection 2 of section 109, and amending section 104, by substituting for the words license fee of two dollars the words required license fee.'

By authorizing the Governor in Council to fix the respective fees to be paid for licenses under the Act, and by providing fines for contravention of the said Act.

Motion agreed to, and the House went into committee on the resolution.

Mr. SPROULE.

These fines are

Were they heretofore
Mr. SPROULE.
imposed by the statute itself? Does it pro-
pose to change that now and give power
to the Governor in Council to impose fines
by regulation?

Mr. R. L. BORDEN. It means that you
are providing for fines by the Bill?

Mr. FISHER. Yes, I have the Bill here: Any person required by this section to furnish such statement or declaration, and faila written demand to him therefor from the ing to do so within three days after receipt of commissioner, shall be liable upon summary What are these subsec- conviction, to a fine of twenty-five dollars for each day thereafter during which he shall fail to furnish such statement or declaration, and the minister shall have power to cancel his license.

tions that are repealed?

Mr. FISHER. By substituting 'required Licenses issued under this Act shall be relicense fee' for 'license fee of $2' it is proposed to change the system under which At the present time vocable by the commissioner upon a summary the fee is collected. plaint of any person, in writing, under oath all elevators have to pay the same license proceeding before the commissioner upon com fee of $2, but there is a decided difference setting forth the particular violation of the in the amount of business done in differ-law, and upon satisfactory proof in that beent elevators, and, therefore, they wish to measure the license by the amount of business done. The words have to be changed in the Act to 'required license fee.'

Mr. SPROULE. That seems to have reference to amending section 109, but the minister has not told us what he proposes to repeal.

These words occur in Mr. FISHER. different places in the Act, and the sections mentioned in the resolution are the sections in which they occur; therefore, they all require to be amended.

Mr. R. L. BORDEN. What is the idea of the minister as to the fee that should be exacted?

I could not give an exMr. FISHER. act statement as to the amount, but it will vary according to the business done Some of the in the different elevators. large elevators will have to pay more than $2. I do not think it is intended that any elevator shall have its license for less than $2.

Mr. SPROULE. At the present time the
Governor in Council may impose fines.
Have you any knowledge of the fines that
are contemplated in the Act? This appears
to be a new authority.

Mr. FISHER. That section changes the
At present the
form of the proceedings.
proceedings under the Act are in the form
of an indictment, whereas, it is desired
that these proceedings be taken under the
Summary Convictions Act, and that changes
in the Act are required for that purpose.
I have no memorandum from the Depart-
ment of Trade and Commerce as to how

half to be taken in such manner as is directed
by the commissioner; provided that such revo-
has given his sanction thereto.
cation shall not take effect until the minister

I do not see anything defining any other in the Bill prescribing any other fines exact amount, and I do not find anything than the sections which I have just read. I think that must be the one that is referred to in the resolution.

Mr. STAPLES. I would like to ask the minister on what representation he is making these amendments. Has there been a petition presented, or has a delegation waited upon the minister to point out defects strengthened in any way? This is the first in the Act, or where the Act could be intimation I have had that the Act was going to be amended.

As far as 1 know these Mr. FISHER. amendments originated in the department not aware that they have not been asked to facilitate the working of the Act. I am for but I have no officer of the department with me to-night and I could not positively answer that question. Of course, this is merely the resolution upon which the Bill is founded.

There certainly must Mr. STAPLES. have been some communication from the officials representing the government of Manitoba or this amendment would not be advanced by the minister. I would like to I have no information Mr. FISHER. know what representations have been made. about any representations. If the hon. gentleman considers it necessary, before proceeding with the Bill itself, to have that information I would have to ask the committee to rise and report progress.

Mr. TURRIFF. Mr. D. D. Campbell, of Winnipeg. He has represented that some Mr. STAPLES. What I want to know is amendments are necessary to carry out the on what advice the minister is amending evident intention of the Bill of last year. the Act on the lines suggested in the resoI took these amendments up with the Min-lution. ister of Trade and Commerce and he is of the opinion they are reasonable amendments, and although they do not appear in the Bill as introduced they will be passed later on. The sooner they are passed the better. The amendment to which I particularly refer is in connection with broken and small wheat. At present the elevators are not compelled to account for the screenings of wheat and this year in some cases there have been 100 bushels of screenings, which make first-class feed, cleaned out of a 1,000 bushel car. The farmer has to pay

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