HANSARD'S Parliamentary Debates During the FOURTH SESSION of the EIGHTH PARLIAMENT of the United Kingdom of GREAT BRITAIN and IRELAND, appointed to meet at Westminster the 4th of February, 1880, in the Eleventh Year of the Reign of His Majesty GEORGE THE FOURTH. [SECOND VOLUME OF THE SESSION.] Tuesday, March 9, 1830. MINUTES.] On the Motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, an Address was presented to his Majesty, for a copy of the second Report of the Commissioners for Inquiry into the proceedings in Suits in the Superior Courts of Common Law. On the Motion of the Earl of ROSSLYN, Lord ELLENBOROUGH'S Divorce Bill, after Counsel had been heard, was read a second time. HOUSE OF COMMONS. collected in each Department, and the rate per cent at which such collection was made:-of the Items of the Expenditure, including charges for conveyance out and home, and for outfit, of the Diplomatic Consular Establishment to the New States of South America, with the time of Residence of each Consul, since January 1st, 1825. Notices were given by Sir JAMES GRAHAM, that, on Friday next, he would move for the following Return:-Of all Salaries, Profits, Pay, Fees, and Emoluments, whether Civil or Military, from 5th January, 1829, to the 5th January, 1830, held and enjoyed by each Member of the Privy Council; specifying the total amount received by each individual, and distinguishing the various sources from which they were derived; and also that, on Friday, before the House resolved itself into a Committee on the Navy Estimates, he would move a Resolution respecting the recent appointment of the Treasurer of the Navy. Leave was obtained by Mr. POULETT THOMSON, to bring in a Bill to Amend the Laws relating to Usury. A Bill was brought in to regulate the Office of Sheriff in Ireland. The Game Bill was read a second time. The Exchequer Bills Bill, and the Transfer of Aids Bill were passed. Mutiny Bill went through a Committee. The Pensions and Duties Bill was read a first time. The Estimates of the Army Extraordinaries, Civil Contingencies, and expense of the Commissariat Department were laid on the Table. An humble Address was ordered to be presented to his Majesty, for a copy of the Commission issued for Inquiry into the Ecclesiastical Courts of England and Wales: also for an Account of the Expenditure, including Charges of Conveyance and outfit for Diplomatic and Insular Establishments in the New States of America. were MINUTES.] MR. WARD took the Oaths and his Seat as Mem- Accounts were ordered, on the Motion of Mr. HUME, of Cot- situations, or receiving two or more pensions or allow On the Motion of Sir JAMES GRAHAM, of the Names and Offices of all Persons now employed in the respective Civil Departments of the United Kingdom, whose Salaries and Emoluments exceed 2501. per annum; shewing the compensation amount in 1815 and 1829; the grounds on which increase, if any, had been made, and giving the date of that increase :-of the Net Amount of the Revenue VOL. XXIII. {N.S.} The HERRING FISHERY SCOTLAND.] Mr. Cutlar Fergusson, in presenting a Petition from the Magistrates and others of Cromarty, engaged in the cure of Herrings, praying for the continuance of the bounty on that branch of industry, stated that the people engaged in this trade, by aid of this bounty had been enabled to carry it on, and that it nourished 48,000 seaB ants of Merthyr-Tydvil, complaining of great distress, said that the petitioners had so little business, and profits were so low, that they were hardly able to exist. The manufacturers and artizans having barely the necessaries of life, the shopkeepers and tradesmen were suffering most severely, and many of them had no business at all. The petitioners prayed for a reduction of taxation, as the only means of relief. He could bear his testimony to the truth of the petition, but he was bound to add that he believed the pressure would speedily pass away. He would enter into further particulars did he not anticipate a better opportunity for doing so when the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyne brought forward his motion. men, as hardy as any in Britain. If it were withdrawn, these men would be unable to obtain a living. Many of them, too, had been driven from their former dwellings by its having been found expepedient to appropriate the land to a different purpose, and they had found a reSource from starvation in this fishery. He did not suppose it would be necessary for him to point out to the House the importance, in a national point of view, of our fisheries as forming a nursery for our seamen; but he must say, it would be very impolitic were the Government to embrace any policy which would drive these men from our shores, and compel them to seek a home and employment in a foreign land. He was well aware of the theory on which these bounties were withdrawn; but he must say, practically speaking, to turn such a body of men from our shores, at a time when France and Holland were encouraging their commerce to the utmost of their power, was neither politic nor wise. It was breaking up our naval militia. The petitioners stated, that the bounty would not be wholly lost to the state, but repaid in the shape of Lord Althorp presented a Petition from various taxes, which, without this bounty, the Grand Jury of the County of Norththey would be unable to pay, and unable ampton, complaining of the sums of to get a living. The petitioners prayed money paid for passing Irish and Scotch that the Government would at least con- Vagrants. It was difficult, his Lordship tinue a part of the bounty, for if it were said, to credit the expense to which paall withdrawn, they declared that it would rishes were subject on this account. be utterly unable for them to carry on single parish, in 1825, paid 7977. for the their business. On a subject of so much purpose; in 1828 it paid 6887., and last importance, he hoped he might be ex-year 7771. If by this expense those paupers cused if he earnestly called on the House and the Government to give it their serious consideration. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.] Sir William Rowley, in presenting Petitions from several Hundreds in Suffolk, praying for the remission of the Duties on Malt and Beer, stated that the petitioner, in common with all the agriculturists, were suffering under vast distress, which they said was much enhanced by the Duties on Malt and Beer pressing particularly on them, by preventing the consumption of Barley. He earnestly prayed, that the Government would give ear to the petitioners, and give relief to the Agricultural Interest, by repealing these and other burthens. DISTRESS IN THE IRON TRADE.] Mr. Alderman Thompson, in presenting a Petition signed by 400 respectable inhabit Sir Christopher Cole bore his testimony to the severe sufferings of the petitioners, and at the same time said, they had, in the midst of all their sufferings, displayed invariable loyalty and good conduct. He was happy, however, to say, that there had of late been a gradual improvement in the trade of that part of the country. Petition read and printed. A were permanently removed, so as not again to become a burthen, it might be borne, but it unfortunately happened that the same expense was incurred, year after year, in passing the same identical paupers, who amused themselves apparently travelling through the country at the expense of the different parishes. Some legislative provision was, he thought, necessary on this subject, and he hoped hon. Members would attend to it. Mr. Cartwright stated, that he fully concurred in what had fallen from the noble Lord, and agreed with him that some remedy ought to be applied to this evil. The necessity of passing vagrants caused an enormous expense to parishes. Mr. Greene concurred in this representation of the evil. In the absence of a noble Lord (Stanley), he begged to say that it was his intention to bring some measure respecting this subject under the notice of the House at an early day. He knew of one parish in Lancashire which was subject, on this account, to an annual expense of nearly 3,000l. Mr. Cutlar Fergusson said, that there was abundant proof of the expense occasioned by Irish vagrants; but he knew no examples of money thus spent in the conveyance of Scotch vagrants. Scotland would be glad to maintain her own vagrants, if she had none others to support, but she was burthened to a great extent with the expense of supporting Irish paupers. Mr. Munday expressed his satisfaction, that an evil which had long been seriously felt in many parts of the country, had at length attracted the attention of the House, and he hoped that the committee, for which he understood the noble Lord meant to move, might devise some remedy. Sir James Graham said, he could inform his hon. friend the Member for Kircudbright, that the expense of passing Scotch paupers was very considerable in the county which he represented. Mr. C. Davenport could also inform the House, that where he resided, the expense of passing Scotch and Irish paupers was very great, and he would give his strenuous support to any measure for relieving the country from this enormous expense. Sir M. W. Ridley also asserted, that the expense of passing Scotch vagrants was very considerable, and which fell very heavy in some of the northern counties. Where he resided it was very severely felt, and would, he was afraid, continue as long as the practice was continued of banishing men from Scotland. Whether that were a punishment or not to the individuals he would not say, but it was a severe infliction for the northern parts of England which had to pay for the passing and repassing of these banished Scotchmen. Mr. O'Connell thought, that if Irish vagrants were to be driven from this country, their deportation should be provided for at the expense, not of the country to which they were going, but of that in which they had spent their life, and enriched by their labour. It would be cruel on those men, after having spent their youth in the service of England, to send them back in their old age to starve in Ireland, or be a burthen on a land they had voluntarily quitted. There was an other class of vagrants he should like to see transported to Ireland. He meant the rich vagrants, who collected their rents in that country, to spend them in foreign lands. Mr. Littleton said, that he did not think the case of the Irish vagrants was quite what the hon. and learned Member for Clare represented it. They did not benefit the country one-half so much by their labour as they injured it by the excessive competition they introduced, and the paupers their system of working created. He could assert, that they were a real grievance to the central counties. Staffordshire alone had paid 2,000l. a-year for the expenses of their removal, and the sum was increasing. He trusted the hon. Member for Lancaster would soon submit to the House some measure to remedy this evil. Mr. George Dawson said, that injustice. was often committed towards Ireland in removing thither the female vagrants with whom the men had formed connections in this country. With regard to Scotland, he could show that invitations were often sent over to Ireland for labourers to go to Scotland, where they were wanted to underwork the active labourers of the soil, and they were then sent back in a very miserable condition, after they had served the purposes of those who had called them over. Mr. Cutlar Fergusson observed, that the hon. Gentleman must be mistaken, as Scotland unfortunately possessed no power of sending back the vagrants to their own country. That was the great defect in her law. In one county alone there had been 40,000 Irish paupers. He repeated what he had before said, that Scotland would gladly maintain her own poor if she had no others to support. In reply to his hon. friend, the Member for Cumberland, he would say that he did not assert that there were no Scotch vagrants in England, but only that the number was small. Mr. Griffith said, the hon. and learned Member for Clare was mistaken in the way in which he had spoken of the Irish vagrants. Our great evil was, that as soon as they had been sent back to Ireland they came back again, and out of a large number very few would at any time be found who had not been in this country before. They made a trade of this passing and repassing between the two countries. men, as hardy as any in Britain. If it | ants of Merthyr-Tydvil, complaining of great distress, said that the petitioners had so little business, and profits were so low, that they were hardly able to exist. The manufacturers and artizans having barely the necessaries of life, the shopkeepers and tradesmen were suffering most severely, and many of them had no business at all. The petitioners prayed for a re relief. He could bear his testimony to the truth of the petition, but he was bound to add that he believed the pressure would speedily pass away. He would enter into further particulars did he not anticipate a better opportunity for doing so when the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyne brought forward his motion. Sir Christopher Cole bore his testimony to the severe sufferings of the petitioners, and at the same time said, they had, in the midst of all their sufferings, displayed invariable loyalty and good conduct. He was happy, however, to say, that there had of late been a gradual improvement in the trade of that part of the country. were withdrawn, these men would be unable to obtain a living. Many of them, too, had been driven from their former dwellings by its having been found expepedient to appropriate the land to a different purpose, and they had found a resource from starvation in this fishery. He did not suppose it would be necessary for him to point out to the House the im-duction of taxation, as the only means of portance, in a national point of view, of our fisheries as forming a nursery for our seamen; but he must say, it would be very impolitic were the Government to embrace any policy which would drive these men from our shores, and compel them to seek a home and employment in a foreign land. He was well aware of the theory on which these bounties were withdrawn; but he must say, practically speak ing, to turn such a body of men from our shores, at a time when France and Holland were encouraging their commerce to the utmost of their power, was neither politic nor wise. It was breaking up our naval militia. The petitioners stated, that the bounty would not be wholly lost to the state, but repaid in the shape of Lord Althorp presented a Petition from various taxes, which, without this bounty, the Grand Jury of the County of Norththey would be unable to pay, and unable ampton, complaining of the sums of to get a living. The petitioners prayed money paid for passing Irish and Scotch that the Government would at least con- Vagrants. It was difficult, his Lordship tinue a part of the bounty, for if it were said, to credit the expense to which paall withdrawn, they declared that it would rishes were subject on this account. be utterly unable for them to carry on single parish, in 1825, paid 7977. for the their business. On a subject of so much purpose; in 1828 it paid 6887., and last importance, he hoped he might be ex-year 7771. If by this expense those paupers cused if he earnestly called on the House were permanently removed, so as and the Government to give it their serious again to become a burthen, it might be consideration. borne, but it unfortunately happened that the same expense was incurred, year after year, in passing the same identical paupers, who amused themselves apparently travelling through the country at the expense of the different parishes. Some legislative provision was, he thought, necessary on this subject, and he hoped hon. Members would attend to it. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.] Sir William Rowley, in presenting Petitions from several Hundreds in Suffolk, praying for the remission of the Duties on Malt and Beer, stated that the petitioner, in common with all the agriculturists, were suffering under vast distress, which they said was much enhanced by the Duties on Malt and Beer pressing particularly on them, by preventing the consumption of Barley. He earnestly prayed, that the Government would give ear to the petitioners, and give relief to the Agricultural Interest, by repealing these and other burthens. DISTRESS IN THE IRON TRADE.] Mr. Alderman Thompson, in presenting a Petition signed by 400 respectable inhabit Petition read and printed. A not Mr. Cartwright stated, that he fully concurred in what had fallen from the noble Lord, and agreed with him that some remedy ought to be applied to this evil. The necessity of passing vagrants caused an enormous expense to parishes. Mr. Greene concurred in this representation of the evil. In the absence of a noble Lord (Stanley), he begged to say that it was his intention to bring some measure respecting this subject under the notice of the House at an early day. He knew of one parish in Lancashire which was subject, on this account, to an annual expense of nearly 3,0007. Mr. Cutlar Fergusson said, that there was abundant proof of the expense occasioned by Irish vagrants; but he knew no examples of money thus spent in the conveyance of Scotch vagrants. Scotland would be glad to maintain her own vagrants, if she had none others to support, but she was burthened to a great extent with the expense of supporting Irish paupers. Mr. Munday expressed his satisfaction, that an evil which had long been seriously felt in many parts of the country, had at length attracted the attention of the House, and he hoped that the committee, for which he understood the noble Lord meant to move, might devise some remedy. Sir James Graham said, he could inform his hon. friend the Member for Kircudbright, that the expense of passing Scotch paupers was very considerable in the county which he represented. Mr. C. Davenport could also inform the House, that where he resided, the expense of passing Scotch and Irish paupers was very great, and he would give his strenuous support to any measure for relieving the country from this enormous expense. Sir M. W. Ridley also asserted, that the expense of passing Scotch vagrants was very considerable, and which fell very heavy in some of the northern counties. Where he resided it was very severely felt, and would, he was afraid, continue as long as the practice was continued of banishing men from Scotland. Whether that were a punishment or not to the individuals he would not say, but it was a severe infliction for the northern parts of England which had to pay for the passing and repassing of these banished Scotchmen. Mr. O'Connell thought, that if Irish vagrants were to be driven from this country, their deportation should be provided for at the expense, not of the country to which they were going, but of that in which they had spent their life, and enriched by their labour. It would be cruel on those men, after having spent their youth in the service of England, to send them back in their old age to starve in Ireland, or be a burthen on a land they had voluntarily quitted. There was an other class of vagrants he should like to see transported to Ireland. He meant the rich vagrants, who collected their rents in that country, to spend them in foreign lands. Mr. Littleton said, that he did not think the case of the Irish vagrants was quite what the hon. and learned Member for Clare represented it. They did not benefit the country one-half so much by their labour as they injured it by the excessive competition they introduced, and the paupers their system of working created. He could assert, that they were a real grievance to the central counties. Staffordshire alone had paid 2,000l. a-year for the expenses of their removal, and the sum was increasing. He trusted the hon. Member for Lancaster would soon submit to the House some measure to remedy this evil. Mr. George Dawson said, that injustice was often committed towards Ireland in removing thither the female vagrants with whom the men had formed connections in this country. With regard to Scotland, he could show that invitations were often sent over to Ireland for labourers to go to Scotland, where they were wanted to underwork the active labourers of the soil, and they were then sent back in a very miserable condition, after they had served the purposes of those who had called them over. Mr. Cutlar Fergusson observed, that the hon. Gentleman must be mistaken, as Scotland unfortunately possessed no power of sending back the vagrants to their own country. That was the great defect in her law. In one county alone there had been 40,000 Irish paupers. He repeated what he had before said, that Scotland would gladly maintain her own poor if she had no others to support. In reply to his hon. friend, the Member for Cumberland, he would say that he did not assert that there were no Scotch vagrants in England, but only that the number was small. Mr. Griffith said, the hon. and learned Member for Clare was mistaken in the way in which he had spoken of the Irish vagrants. Our great evil was, that as soon as they had been sent back to Ireland they came back again, and out of a large number very few would at any time be found who had not been in this country before. They made a trade of this passing and repassing between the two countries. |