Malt and Beer Tax would do the pauper - vacuum must be double as compared with foreign colonization. "8. That if the vacuum were to be filled up, the policy of a measure of colonization must be governed by a comparison of the increment of the expense of maintaining the new pauper population, with the decrement of the expense of maintaining the removed population, supposing them to have remained at home. 66 wealth more effective than the combination of 10. That, independently of the special advantage to the landed interest, and to the labouring classes, the expenditure involved in such a measure of colonization would not be, in any degree, prejudicial to other classes possessing property in society. "11. That, as a pauper, while he continues a pauper, receives necessarily only a bare subsistence, he can neither suffer from taxation, nor be relieved by its remission. "12. That the application of any portion of surplus revenue for the purpose of raising a capital to be applied in the first instance in the home employment, and secondly, in the colonization of the poor, would be more beneficial to the labouring classes of the community, than if the same sum were applied in the reduction of public debt, or in the remission of any class of taxes to the same amount." An examination would enable him to convince the House that what he had "2. That if a pauper population, for whose stated was the fact; and then only, when labour there is no real demand, can be pros- the House were really disposed to make perously colonized (with their own consent) at the experiment, would it be able to afford a less expense than would be necessary to be incurred for their maintenance in the mother substantial relief to the labouring and country, a national outlay for the purpose of suffering classes of the country. He such colonization ought to be considered as an begged to offer the House his best thanks economy rather than as an expense. for the attention with which they had heard him, and he would now no further trouble them than by quoting an aphorism of Lord Bacon, who was the enemy of colonization in general, but whom he considered the best defender of the principle which he had endeavoured to recommend to the House. Lord Bacon had said, "3. That if a redundant population were removed by a national effort of colonization, there would be but little danger to be apprehended from what is called the filling-up of the vacuum.' "4. That if the United Kingdom were relieved from its redundant labourers-that is, those labourers for whose labour no real and natural demand exists in society; the remain ing labourers might permanently remain in a state of comparative comfort and independence. 5. That it is expedient to effect such repa ration and abstraction of forced from unforced labour as would accurately measure the extent of the redundancy. 6. That to enable parishes to raise money upon mortgage of their poor-rates for a period of years; such capital being specifically applied towards the emigration of voluntary candidates who may prefer independence in the colonies to pauperism at home; would be a measure highly favourable to the landed interest. "7. That in the event of home colonization, the ratio of danger as to the filling-up of the 66 Things will alter for the worse spontaneously, if they are not remedied decidedly; and then who can say what will be the end of the evil?” In the same manner he would say, that if things were not altered speedily and decidedly, they would go on getting worse spontaneously, and there would be no end of the evil. The population would be unemployed, distress would increase; and if a year passed on without Members being convinced of the truth of what he had said, the period would arrive when they would see there was no other measure but a well planned system of emigration, which could reach the intensity of the evil, and then they would feel the mortification of disappointment, until opinion universally pointed to the true remedy; to that which he had endeavoured, though imperfectly, to describe. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving "that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House to consider of the State of the Poor of the United Kingdom." Mr. Portman, in seconding the Motion of his right honourable friend, said, that he considered some plan of this kind of the utmost importance to the labouring classes of the country. He was convinced that the redundancy of the labouring population was the great cause of their distress. That fact was shown in the state of the county of Dorset. In the short time he was in that county during the Easter recess, no less than 370 persons applied to him to procure them the means of going out with their families to the Swan River, for they were all without the means of procuring a passage. The right hon. Gentleman had made four divisions of the poorer classes of this country. He thought he could make two divisions that would be as nearly accurate as those of the right hon. Gentleman. He should, he said, divide them into poor and paupers. Of the whole of this country the portion north of Warwick, or, perhaps, north of the Thames, might be stated to be that in which the majority of the people were poor; while in that portion of the kingdom south of Warwick, or south of the Thames, the majority of the people were paupers. These latter might be sub-divided also into two classes; those who were paupers in consequence of age or infirmity, and those who were reduced to that situation from the want of sufficient wages to maintain their families. Those who were reduced to pauperism by age or infirmity were supported by poor-laws, and with respect to them no alteration was required; but for those who sunk into pauperism either from the want of work, or from want of sufficient wages, it was necessary that something should be done. The House ought not to interfere with the wages of labour. Mr. Burke had truly said, that to attempt to establish a maximum or minimum of wages was mischievous in the extreme; for labour was commodity, and every interference with the laws of trade for such a purpose must a be injurious. The profits of labour, not haulm or bean-stalk, to place under his father's feet. Another was tried for stealing a truss of straw to make a bed. In the former instance the jury refused to convict, because they said the practice of taking haulm for such a purpose, and to make litter for pigs, was universal in the county. In the second case, they did convict, but the man was strongly recommended to mercy, on the ground that it was also customary for the people to steal straw to make beds. If men were allowed a small piece of land, they could themselves cultivate it, and they would then obtain litter for their cattle, and beds for themselves, which they were now unable to buy, and which it seemed they were compelled to steal. He knew, however, that what he now proposed could not be adopt ed without a change in the law of settlement. He hoped, that should the committee be appointed, the currency question would be kept out of view, for it would only excite a difference of opinion, and detain the House from matter that was much more important. Mr. J. Smith supported the plan of giving each pauper a small portion of land. He had done so three years ago, to a certain extent, in the eastern division of Sussex, and the result had been most satisfactory. He had allotted to a number of poor persons rather more than one acre each, and not only were they kept from demanding parish assistance, but, beyond his utmost expectations, the result had been most beneficial to himself. A Quaker gentleman, of the name of Allen, who also had property there, adopted the same plan; and he could assure the House that every one of those individuals who took these small portions of land paid their rent regularly; and they procured by their labour on the soil from 3s. to 5s. 6d. a-week. The consequence was, that they did not receive any parochial aid, and the poor-rates in the parish had been reduced nearly one-half. If, instead of this, individuals were compelled, as they were in many parts of England, to work on the roads at 6d. and 8d. a day, and to sleep in barns and out-houses, there could be no wonder that they forgot their duty to society, and that when temptation came in their way, they fell into the commission of crime. He implored the attention of the House to this subject. Mr. Benett could not agree with the right hon. Gentleman as to many of the i principles he had stated. Among the rest he could not possibly concur with what the right hon. Gentleman had said respecting the currency. He did not wish to introduce that question unnecessarily into this discussion, but he must make one observation upon what the right hon. Gentleman had said. He was not friendly to a depreciated currency; but he could not help thinking that the adoption of the present currency had taken from a number of persons connected with the productive classes of society the same means of employing the labour of men that they before possessed. He thought, therefore, that a limited return to our former currency would provide a greater means of employment, and consequently a greater demand for labour. He must confess that he was quite astonished when he heard the right hon. Gentleman say that the reduction of taxation could have no effect on the labouring poor. Why the reduction of taxation would afford increased means of consumption to the higher and middle classes, and consequently increased opportunity of employment to the labouring poor. Without a large reduction of taxation, he was convinced that emigration would afford but very little relief; for though many might be removed, numbers would soon spring up to fill up their vacant places in the class to which they had belonged. In a parish near him, a clergyman had nearly done away with the poor-rates, by apportioning the glebe land for the poor to cultivate. This could not be done to a sufficient extent to relieve the whole country, but relief might be effected by a return to the former currency, united with a diminution of all the taxes that pressed upon country labour. Mr. Courtenay thought it would be. extremely unadvisable to go into a committee, which would only occupy time. without the least expectation of coming to any practical result. He had still higher. ground on which to object to a committee. It would be an abuse to the country to appoint a committee to take into consideration the state of the labouring poor, unless the House felt confident that that committee would be able to devise something which would administer to the suffering classes extensive relief. agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that there had been a great redundance of the labouring poor, but he could not bring himself to believe that that redundance He had been caused by the poor-rates. He had reflected much on this subject, and he was satisfied, that all the House could do would be to amend the poor-laws; and if that were not sufficient, then to have recourse to emigration. But to attain neither of these objects did a committee appear to him to be the most desirable mode of proceeding. The right hon. Gentleman approved of the bill introduced by the hon. Member for Shrewsbury, and had proposed amendments to it, a course which he thought more likely to promote the object the right hon. Gentleman had in view than that which he now wished the House to adopt. The right hon. Gentleman had said, that of many select committees not one had produced any good; but he must remind him of one exception; for one committee had produced a bill which had certainly checked the progress of the poor-rates. The evil of the poor-rates had not increased in any thing like the proportion that had been expected twelve or thirteen years ago. There was not a single term used by the right hon. Gentleman, respecting the impossibility of the country continuing to go on as it had done, which had not been used and applied over and over again in the same manner during a century and a half. The right hon. Gentleman wished to know how much of the poor-rates were paid to those who were willing to labour, but could not get work, and he had recommended a classification of paupers, but neither of these objects were proper to be debated in a committee. If a committee upon the subject were to consist of thirty-five Members, he was sure there would be thirty-four plans and a half started, each of which would require to be debated. The letting of lands to labourers would be facilitated by the bill then in the House, which gave a power to parishes to let out land for the employment of the poor. He could only say, that whatever improved the prosperity of the country must improve the condition of the people; but it would be impossible to get rid of the poor altogether, unless they could have a constant progressive prosperity without any check, and keeping pace with the increase of the population. The right hon. Gentleman's Resolutions were a sort of reasoning pamphlet, and he could not expect any committee to agree to his Resolutions; they would cause an endless discussion. He would recommend 1 the right hon. Gentleman to abandon his measure, and proceed with his bill for emigration. Mr. Slaney willingly acknowledged the services rendered by the right hon. Gentleman in bringing the subject before the country, for there never was a period which more imperatively called upon the House, as a matter of policy and duty, to consider the question of population in relation to the means of employment. There had now been a period of fifteen years of peace; and instead of having improved the condition of the labouring classes of the community, the peasantry of the southern counties of England had decidedly deteriorated. Mansions had been built, and riches spread throughout the land; the higher classes possessed enjoyments which they had not possessed before, and the middle classes had enjoyments which their forefathers had not; but the working classes, by whose labour they attained their enjoyments, instead of advancing with the progress of civilization, had fallen back. No man who looked to the consequences could contemplate the effects of this continual deterioration without alarm. Was not this a case to call on Government, and upon that House, calmly and sedulously, but firmly and steadily, to look at once at the nature and extent of the evil, and at its probable consequences. The great body of the working classes might be divided into two sets perfectly distinct- he meant the agricultural and manufacturing population; but of the latter it was not his intention to say a single word. With reference to the peasantry, they might be divided likewise into two classes, perfectly and clearly distinct from each other. An hon. Member had spoken of the redundancy of the population, which certainly might exist in the south of England, but it could not be said to exist in the northern counties. The greatest distinction existed between the southern and northern parts of the kingdom,, as much, indeed, as between the people of any two distinct kingdoms; and it was for the House to trace the causes of the difference. In twenty counties of the north the poor were well off, with plenty of work and good pay for their labour, and the parish rates were lower than in the South; whilst in the South there was an immense body of the poor depressed and degraded, as compared with their brethren of the north. The poor rates in the county of Sussex were as the abuses had been introduced. They high as 7s. in the pound, whilst in the had the experience of various parishes, north they did not exceed 1s. 6d. In which had returned to those laws with the the north the poor-laws had been kept to happiest effect. The success had been their original intention, whilst in Sussex uniform, and where wages had increased they had been wrested completely from pauperism had diminished. It was in their purpose. In the north only one consequence of the abuses of the poorperson in forty applied for relief out of laws that the redundancy of the populathe rates, whilst in Sussex the proportion | tion existed in the South of England; but was as one to three. In 1793, the price of all remedies were useless that did not tend food to the poor man was proportionate to to restore the proportion between employhis wages, but now things were regulated ment and capital. All that was necessary, by a new principle. In the interim, the however, was to take away the existing prices of wages and food had oscillated; stimulants to population, and to leave the wheat in one year had varied from 60s. to natural laws which regulated population to 150s. the quarter. It had been utterly their own operation. The poor would be impossible in those years for the labouring then more industrious and cautious, and man to support himself, and in the north take better care of themselves. The right the temporary expedient of subscriptions hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) was not had been resorted to; whilst in the south insensible to the sufferings of the multithe expedient had been adopted of paying tude; and he saw the necessity of assistthe wages of labour partially out of the ing the classes that were distressed and poor-rates; and of all schemes ever in- degraded. It was evident, indeed, that vented, never had there been one more unless something were done, the country detrimental. A scale of these drafts from would go on from worse to worse. Turn the poor-rates had been fixed according to which way they would, from the House in the prices of bread. This had commenced which they then were-go into whatever in Sussex. Was not Government bound county or place they would round the to consider the effects of this system? A metropolis, it would be found that one few years ago the proportion of paupers in person in every five or six was a pauthis kingdom had been as one in twelve; per. The noble palaces-the splendid soon after as one in nine; soon after as mansions that surrounded them-stood one in seven; and now he believed it to upon an insecure foundation and a totterbe as one in six. He could refer to docu-ing base as long as the labourers were ments to prove that throughout this kingdom one person in six received aid from the parish. The period which had produced this was that of the oscillations; but now that the cause had passed away, why not revert to the old practice? In the northern counties the poor labourer received twelve shillings a-week, whilst in the south he received five or six; and yet it was infinitely cheaper to pay a man good wages, and stimulate him to use all his energies and exertions; for when the peasantry were degraded they were lost to the country and to themselves. It was both the policy and duty of the landlord to elevate the humbler classes. The Report of the Committee of 1815 had stated in the most plain manner what had been the cause of the abuse of the poorlaws in the South of England. Five different committees had agreed in the same opinions, and they had recommended the same remedies; namely, to go back gradually and cautiously to the system of the poor-laws which had existed before miserable. He believed there was only one feeling in that House upon the subject, and that was, to improve, by every possible means, the condition of the poor. That was now fortunately acknowledged to be the only way to spread happiness, and to diminish that frightful catalogue of crimes which had increased of late years, and which was the necessary consequence of the destitute and degraded condition of the lower orders. Mr. E. Davenport denied that there was an overpopulation in the country; and he thought it would require great abilities to show that a country, capable of producing subsistence for all its inhabitants, and even capable of producing double what it now produced (were agriculture but improved), could be overpeopled by its present population. The chain which had connected capital and labour had been dissolved; but no person had a right to arraign the wisdom of Providence, until he had found out that he could entirely exculpate the folly of man, Providence |