down to such a place as that for the purpose of transacting business. I shall not charge anything for these suggestions. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-We accept it at that price. The clause was adopted. On the second clause: Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-This is to permit increasing the salary of the secretary of the commission to $4,000 ii considered desirable. Hon. Mr. POWER-I suppose he is a good Conservative. The clause was adopted. On the third clause: Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-Under the present Act the expenditure for clerical work is limited to $3,000. It has been found from the experience of the commission that this is not sufficiently large and it has been proposed that the maximum amount shall be fixed at $6,000. Hon. Mr. POWER-That is for general clerical assistance? Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-Yes. Hon. Mr. TAYLOR, from the committee, reported the Bill without amendments. The Senate adjourned until to-morrow at three o'clock. THE SENATE. Thursday, March 19, 1914. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Three o'clock. Prayers and routine proceedings. A CORRECTION. Hon. Mr. De BOUCHERVILLE-I observe that my name does not appear in the report of yesterday's debate in the vote taken on the Hamilton divorce case. I voted against the divorce. THE HAMILTON DIVORCE CASE. MOTION FOR RECONSIDERATION POSTPONED. The Order of the Day being called: March 18.-That he will move that the proceeding had to-day, on the 4th report of the Standing Committee on Divorce be reconsidered for the purpose of rescinding the same. Hon. Mr. KIRCHHOFFER-I move that this Order be discharged and placed on the Orders of the Day for Tuesday next. Hon. Mr. DAVIS-Will the hon. gentleman make it Wednesday? Hon. Mr. KIRCHHOFFER-With the greatest pleasure. Hon. Mr. CLORAN-Will the hon. gentleman be able to give us any reason why he should ask for a reconsideration of this matter after the Senate has passed on it three times? Hon. Mr. DAVIS-He will give the reason next week. Hon. Mr. CLORAN-That will be rather late. If we are to have persecution I suppose we must stand it. BILLS INTRODUCED. Bill (W), An Act for the relief of Walter James Liscombe.-Hon. Mr. Derbyshire. Bill (X), An Act for the relief of Ethel Cora Robinson.-Hon. Mr. Derbyshire. Bill (Y), An Act for the relief of George Fullerton Forsythe.-Hon. Mr. Talbot. Bill (Z), An Act respecting the Canadian Northern Railway Company.-Hon. Mr. Watson. MINISTER OF RAILWAYS IN ENGLAND. QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE. Hon. Mr. CHOQUETTE-I should like to call the attention of the Government to the following despatch, which appears under big headlines in the Daily Mail of yesterday: Presented Sword to Sir E. Carson-Hon. Frank Cochrane present at Anti-Home Rule Gathering. London, March 16.-The Honourable Frank Cochrane, Canadian Minister of Railways, was among a hundred hosts who paid a remarkThe SPEAKER-I will see that the report able personal tribute to Sir Edward Carson of the Debates is corrected, and that the as the Ulster leader at a demonstration dinhon. gentleman's name is added; and Iner at the Ritz hotel last night. hope the votes and proceedings will also namely, the King, Sir Edward Carson,' and There were no speeches and, but three toasts, contain the names. 'no Home Rule.' The surprise of the evening was the pre- Government have the fullest confidence sentation to Sir Edward Carson of an infantry that the loyalty of the Minister of Railways fighting sword with a silver scabbard and a basket hilt, and a beautifully illuminated will be equal to that of the hon. gentleman book emblazoned with the arms of Ulster and from Grandville. a red hand. On the title page were the words: 'Presented to Edward by friends in Ulster in the sure confidence that God will defend the right.' Though not an Irishman, as a Frenchman I have a strong feeling for the Irish people, particularly when they are fighting for Home Rule, and I am surprised to see one of the prominent ministers of this Government joining a demonstration against Home Rule-especially when the minister left his sick bed to go there. He is a sick man, or supposed to be a sick man, and he must have very strong feelings against Home Rule when he joins in such a demonstration. I should like to know if the minister in the course he has taken represents the Government, and if the Government is not only against Home Rule, but is willing to take a hand in the fight against the empire. We in Canada are not more loyal than necessary, and are not willing, without consulting the people, to contribute to the navy, but we respect the constitution; and I am surprised that one of our ministers should leave his work in this country, cross the ocean, and join the man who is ready to fight the empire, and against the soldiers of the King; the man who would disrupt the whole empire. What would the Government say if, to-morrow, some people from Quebec, or any other province of the Dominion, should not only vote against some measure, say the Naval Bill, but be prepared to disobey the law, and engage in Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-Open revolution. Hon. Mr. CHOQUETTE-Open revolution. We have seen what became of public men who, for the sake of truth, fought men who, for the sake of justice and liberty, fought for their own people and their rights; they have been exiled and hanged. It appears however that the law is not the same on the other side. I am especially sorry to see a minister of this Government, who left this country sick, go over there, and make us sick by his conduct. I should like to know what the Government thinks of the matter, and if it approves of the minister's action. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-The Government has no official knowledge of the movements of the Minister of Railways while in pursuit of health. As to the loyalty to the empire of the Minister of Railways-the Hon. Mr. CHOQUETTE-I hope it is. Hon. Mr. CLORAN-I do not think the answer of the leader of the Government is up to the mark. The Government may have absolute confidence in the gentleman called Mr. Frank Cochrane, Minister of Railways, but we have not, and the country has not. Hon. Mr. KIRCHHOFFER-That is too bad. Hon. Mr. CLORAN-It is not too bad, for the British Empire to-day has not the confidence in Frank Cochrane, who leaves this country seeking health and goes over and joins a rebellious gathering against the British Empire. What has the Government to say to that? He should get a message from the leader of this Government. Hon. Mr. TAYLOR-I rise to a point of order. What question is before the Chair? Hon. Mr. CLORAN-Nothing; there is the answer of the leader of the Government. The SPEAKER-There is no question before the Chair. Hon. Mr. CLORAN-Owing to the importance of the subject, and bowing to the decision of the Chair, which is correctthere is no special motion before the House-I now move the adjournment of the House, seconded by the Hon.-by all the senators. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-I rise to a point of order; there is nothing before the Chair. The SPEAKER-The hon. member is moving a motion. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-My hon. friend cannot move the adjournment of the House, with the intention of resuming his speech, as he has spoken on the subject already. Hon. Mr. CLORAN-No, I have not-not on the adjournment; that is where you are mistaken. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—I rise to 8 point of order; the hon. gentleman has spoken on the subject, and he cannot now move the adjournment of the House and resume the discussion. a The SPEAKER-The attention of the Government has been called by the hon. member from Grandville to a question which was answered by the hon. the leader of this House. Then the hon. gentleman from Victoria Division rose and said few words. He was distinctly out of order; there was nothing before the Chair. If the hon. member from Victoria Division wants to put himself in order he must make a motion for the adjournment of the House, but that motion, according to our rules, must be for an urgent question. Hon. M. CLORAN-That was just what I was going to point out. If this 1S not a matter of urgency-to protect the empire against the attack of a Canadian minister-I would like to know what is urgent. The SPEAKER-I shall not take on myself to define the word urgency'; I fear too much the results of a division on any definition I could give, especially in this House; but I leave it to the House to decide if the hon. member is within the rules. Hon. Mr. CLORAN-My motion is now before the House; I move that the House do adjourn, seconded by the Hon. Senator Boyer. Hon. Mr. KERR-I understand the hon. gentleman has indicated the nature of the motion he intends to move. In order to keep himself within the rules, he has explained to this House that he is not out of order, because he intends to move a motion; then he explained what that motion was. A gentleman who proposes to move the adjournment of the House is entitled to speak to the motion, but after the motion is put to the House he may not. The SPEAKER-Rule 25 says: that no notice is required for any of the following motions: (g) for the adjournment of the Senate for the purpose of bringing up a question of urgent public importance (which the mover shall state on rising to speak) before the House proceeds to the orders of the day. I maintain that when the hon. gentleman rose the first time to speak he was not in order. Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-That is right. The SPEAKER-If he wants to put him self in order he must make a motion, and the motion he must make is one for the adjournment of the Senate; but he must make the motion for adjournment for the purpose of bringing up a question of urgent public importance. This the mover must state on rising to speak. Now the hon. gentleman moves that the House do now adjourn, seconded by the Hon. Mr. Boyer. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-I call for the yeas and nays on the question whether the subject is one of urgent public importance. to divide on that motion until the hon. gentleman has finished his speech. He has the floor; I cannot take away the floor from him now. The SPEAKER-I cannot ask the House Hon. Mr. CLORAN-We have not got the gag here yet. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-I rise to a point of order; the hon. gentleman from Victoria Division, before he moved the adjournment of the House, had proceeded with his speech. He cannot in proceeding with the speech move the adjournment of the House and then resume the speech. I raised that point of order, which has not been passed upon. Hon. Mr. CLORAN-I did not take my seat. Somebody on the other side raised a point of order, and I simply sat down to When it was hear the point of order. decided that there was nothing in it, I rose and made my motion.. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-I ask the ruling of the Chair whether the hon. gentleman had not spoken on the subject before he moved the adjournment of the House, and whether he is in order in resuming his speech after making the motion. The SPEAKER: When the hon. gentleman rose there was nothing before the Chair. He was not in order. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-He had spoken on the question he is now discussing. The SPEAKER-I want that point dis cussed. Hon. Mr. BEIQUE-I understand the point of order raised by the hon. leader of the Government is that it is open to any hon. member to move the adjournment of the House, and to take the occasion of that motion to make a speech, but that he is to make his remarks before the motion. Some hon. GENTLEMEN-Hear, hear. Hon. Mr. BEIQUE-I understand that at the beginning or at the end of his is the point the hon. leader of the Govern- remarks. ment has raised. The SPEAKER-In parliamentary procedure anybody may rise, when the Orders of the Day are called, and state that it is his intention to wind up his remarks with a motion. That is the parliamentary rule. Hon. Mr. CLORAN-This discussion puts me in mind of what is now going on in Ulster against the British Empire. Right and justice will prevail there in the long run just as it has prevailed here. Our Minister of Railways left here ostensibly because he was sick-but he could not be Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-He has not done very sick when he attended a banquet when that though. Hon. Mr. McKAY (Cape Breton)-The hon. member from Victoria Division, following the hon. member from Grandville, started to make a speech, and spoke for a couple of minutes forcibly. He was called to order. Hon. Mr. CLORAN-No, I object. I was not called to order. Hon. Mr. McKAY (Cape Breton)-The point raised by the leader of the Government was that the hon. member had spoken on this question, and that now he was out of order and could not make a motion. The SPEAKER-In the parliamentary practice when a motion is put, and a man speaks on that motion, he is not obliged to move an amendment at the beginning of his remarks, but he may at the end of his speech. In this case there was no motion before the House. The hon. member from Grandville called the attention of the House to a certain subject. I cannot say that he was in order, but at all events he was following the practice which prevails in this House. He asked a question which the leader of the Government answered. Then the hon. gentleman from Victoria Division rose and referred to the remarks made by the leader of the Government. He was called to order: there was nothing before the Chair. That was the point of order taken, and, as there was nothing before the Chair, my duty was to tell the hon. gentleman so, and he took his seat. He rose afterwards and made a motion that the House do now adjourn. Hon. Mr. BEIQUE-I am merely asking for information. I want to know how the point of order is raised. Is it not that after a motion has been put, the hon. gentleman is debarred from continuing his remarks? a sword was given to a man, to fight the empire. That sword will never be drawn because I do not suppose the man to whom it has been given has the heart to draw it. He can entice others to hide in the hedges and shoot. If Mr. Cochrane had been in St. Lawrence Hall last Tuesday night and heard Mr. Redmond delivering his address on Home Rule, he would not have given his countenance to the presentation of a sword to Sir Edward Carson to fight the British Empire. Mr. Redmond told his audience that Ulster, for which Bonar Law and Carson are putting spokes in the imperial wheel, is not unanimous against Home Rule. On the contrary a majority of the people of Ulster favour Home Rule. Out of 33 constituencies in Ulster, 17 returned Nationalists and 16, by very small majorities, were elected to oppose the present Government in England. Now why all this fuss; why all these threats of disintegration? Why all these threats against one of the noblest Governments that has controlled the destinies of the British Empire, during the last 50 years? Why try to upset a government that is true to the King, true to the empire, and true to the Dominions over the seas? Why allow a Bonar Law and a Carson to be aided by a Minister of the Canadian Government in carrying out their designs? Mr. Cochrane left his office and his place in Parliament on the pretence that his health was poor, and that he was going to the Mediterranean to secure better health. Well he did not go as far as the Mediterranean; he stopped at London, and to secure what? To assist at a function where a sword was presented to Sir Edward Carson. Who is Carson, after all, and what does he represent in the empire? He simply represents a body of students at Trinity University, Dublin, and is not a representative of the people in any way. He is fighting the British Empire, and trying to keep Ulster at his back, but this he cannot do because Ulster is behind Redmond. It The SPEAKER-The parliamentary prac- vexes the population of this country, all tice is that he may make his motion either nationalities and creeds, to find a Cana dian minister join hands with a man of minion-and we of all nationalities and that kind-and over a sword. The leader creeds will ask why the Government allows of the Government in this House innocently one of its foremost ministers to attend a tells us the Government has no official rebellious gathering against the British information. The Government has as much Government. The Government must underinformation now as the entire press of the stand that that is the way we view the country. They had it yesterday in the matter, and a flimsy answer will not House of Commons, and they have it here. satisfy us. We will find out later whether I was going to say that the answer of the the Government has communicated with hon. leader to the question of the hon. its agent in London, or other proper gentleman from Grandville, that the Gov-authorities, to ascertain if the facts ernment had no information on the sub- narrated in the press are correct, and we ject, was childish. There are seven or will then have more to say. We cannot eight million people in this Dominion, and stand here, on the eve of the greatest they want a more definite answer. They achievement political history will record in want a declaration that the Government the annals of the empire, and find one of is not in sympathy with the position the prominent ministers of Canada holding assumed by Mr. Cochrane in London; thât up a sword against it. This measure of the action of Mr. Cochrane attending the home government is as dear to the Frenchsword gathering in London has not the Canadian and every British subject, with approval of the Government; that his a loyal and tender heart in his breast, as action is distinctly repudiated-or else we to any Irishman. The Canadian Parliawant to know whether the Government is ment in 1882 made a plea and put forth a in league with Mr. Cochrane in this moveprayer for Home Rule, and in 1886 this ment. The Government cannot hide under same Parliament of Canada upheld the a cloak of that description; the veil is not efforts of that great, glorious, and illusthick enough to cover a crime of that kind; trious statesman, William Ewart Gladand so I hold that the action of Mr. Coch- stone. But now, thirty-two years after that rane, under the circumstances, is a crime. expression of sympathy for the Irish cause by the people of Canada, through their Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-Treason. representatives in Parliament assembled, we find one of the foremost ministers of the Government attending a rebellious banquet, and leaving his work in the Parliament of Canada to so attend, under the Hon. Mr. CLORAN-If the Government pretence that he was sick. The Governhas not the information, it is their duty to ment must understand that such procedure cable their representative in London and will not be tolerated in the year 1914, after ascertain from the records if Mr. Cochrane this country has, on two distinct occasions, attended that meeting; it is their duty to expressed itself otherwise. I am very sorry bring the answer back to Parliament, and that we have only the hon. leader of the to say that Mr. Cochrane attended that Government in this House to address on meeting against the wishes of the Governthis matter. I know he does not feel as ment, against the best interests of Canada, Mr. Cochrane does. I should like to be in and against the party interests. And if front of Mr. Borden and his ministers, and Mr. Cochrane does not apologize and give explanation, then it is the duty of the leader tell them what the people of this country of the Government to call for his resigna- expect, and what they will not tolerate. tion. We cannot, as a Dominion, oppose I do not know whether Mr. Borden would the British Government and His Majesty be a party to the action of his minister; in their endeavour to carry legislation but the Government should demand an through the British Parliament, and that apology from Mr. Cochrane, and, if the is what the attitude of Mr. Cochrane apology is not forthcoming, to ask for his actually means. This matter is more resignation, or be held responsible or serious than the hon. leader of the Gov- jointly liable with Mr. Cochrane in regard ernment seems to think. The people of to this rebellious attack on the British this country will wake up later on, from Government. concession to concession, county to county, province to province-all over the Do Hon. Mr. CLORAN-A case of treason, as well said by the hon. senator. Hon. Mr. DAVIS-High treason. The motion was lost. |