Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-I doubt if any of them would have waited for new legislation on account of the uncertainty of their getting new legislation, but I think this will give finality to the whole matter. Hon. Mr. KERR-There is another view of the question which should not be lost sight of. If those who did not apply before the date named, have since applied, it does not seem unreasonable that those who have applied after the expiration of the time should get rights which others, equally entitled to them, will not receive simply because they did not make the application until it was too late. In other words, if the Government are going to open the door at all they should open it to all alike.

these

the

as high as $2,000 for the scrip; others who knew very little about its value, sold it for $40 or $50. Such has always been the case in connection with these bounty laws. People knowing the value of certificates would go amongst holders of them and buy them cases like up. There may have been that one mentioned by one hon. gentleman, of people who had died and the land obtained by the widows. Sometimes when their husbands died, after all the necessary papers were filed in Ontario, in such cases the widow was granted the right to locate the lands. I dare say there are many cases of that character in connection with the South African bounty. If it were at all practicable, I should take the view that Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-It gives the right has been expressed by those who desire to to all holders of certificates to receive $500. prevent speculators from getting those cerIt does not bar the right of any one hold-tificates, but if these speculators bought ing a certificate to receive that amount the scrip under the law, and hold it legally, for it, at any time before the 31st of De- I do not see very well how we can reach cember next. them.

Hon. Mr. WATSON-Will the hon. gentleman obtain for the Senate a list of the holders of certificates, before we reach the third reading of the Bill?

Hon. Mr. YOUNG-Up to the 31st October last holders of certificates have the option either to file on land or get $500. Under this Bill their right is restricted to exchanging the certificate for $500. We are simply renewing part of the privilege which expired in October by saying that up to 31st December next holders of certificates may exchange them for $500. The right is confined to that.

Hon. Mr. WATSON-You are making this Scrip worth $500 whereas it was not worth anything after October last.

some

Hon. Mr. WATSON-There is no parallel between the case of the Fenian raid scrip and the South African scrip. The Fenian raid scrip was not issued until some 55 years after the raids; consequently many entitled to the scrip were dead, and others did not know they were entitled to a share in the bounty. But in the case of the South African bounty, the scrip was granted immediately after the close of the war, and I venture to say very few of those entitled to scrip did not know their rights. Or if any were in ignorance of their rights, speculators would soon inform them. The scrip that has not been located is simply held up by speculators who knew that legislation such as this would likely be passed this session.

Hon. Mr. BOLDUC, from the Committee, reported the Bill without amendment. The Senate adjourned until Tuesday

Hon. Mr. THOMPSON-As my hon. friend opposite has said, many people do not understand the statutes, but there are people who do understand them; knowing that the time for using the certifi- next at 3 o'clock. cates expired last October, they have been speculating in the scrip. Probably some of us, if an opportunity came, might be inclined to take advantage of such a chance to speculate.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL-Ever since these certificates have been granted they have been the subject of speculation; many a poor fellow has sold his certificate for a very small sum. This was also the case when the Ontario Government granted 160 acres of land to those who had participated in the Fenian raid. Some obtained

THE SENATE.

Tuesday, March 31, 1904.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at Three o'clock.

Prayers and routine proceedings.

BILLS INTRODUCED.

Bill (J-2), An Act respecting the Berlin. Waterloo, Wellsley and Lake Huron Railway Company.-Hon. Mr. Bostock.

Bill (K-2), An Act respecting the Western Dominion Railway Company.-Hon. Mr. Talbot.

THIRD READINGS.

Bill (E), An Act to incorporate The National Council of Women of Canada.Hon. Mr. Kerr.

Bill (60), An Act to incorporate The United Empire Loyalists' Association of Canada.-Hon. Mr. Kirchhoffer.

Bill (R), An Act respecting a Patent of John Roger Arnoldi.-Hon. Mr. Kerr. Bill (76), An Act to incorporate Les Soeurs de la Charité l'Hôpital Sainte Antoine de Le Pas.-Hon. Mr. Bolduc.

Bill (66), An Act respecting the Patent of the National Wood Distilling Company. -Hon. Mr. Derbyshire.

Bill (51), An Act respecting the Bronson Company. Hon. Mr. Belcourt.

Bill (46), An Act respecting The Erie, London and Tillsonburg Railway Company.--Hon. Sir Lyman Jones.

VOLUNTEER BOUNTY ACT AMEND-
MENT.

THIRD READING.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED moved the third reading of Bill (98), An Act to amend the Volunteer Bounty Act, 1908, and amending Acts.

Hon. Mr. DAVIS-I am very sorry that when this Bill came up for second reading I was unavoidably absent. I should have liked to have obtained some information from the hon. leader of the House in reference to the matter. As a matter of

passed for the benefit of the South African veterans. If it were being passed for their benefit nobody would agree to it quicker than I would. The men who risked their lives in South Africa should have some recognition, although the time is coming when we will have to stop giving these bonuses. We may have to send a contingent to Ireland some of these days; in that case will the Government give its members scrip, and redeem it later on in this way?

Hon. Mr. WATSON-Which side would they fight on?

Hon. Mr. DAVIS-These speculators held the certificates for high figures until the time limit was up, and something had to be done. They managed to bring influence

to bear on the Government to have the time extended. Last year it was extended, but on account of the unfortunate collapse of certain speculations in western lands, the speculators find it almost impossible to sell these certificates.

Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-Hear, hear.

Hon. Mr. DAVIS-Now they come to the Dominion Government and want to get their hands into the treasury and obtain $500 for each certificate of scrip.

Why should the Government of this country hand out $500 to a speculator? In buying this scrip he took his chances on it; it might have been worth a thousand dollars or it might not have been worth 1,000 cents. Like any other speculator, he bought it as a speculation. Now, when he finds that the time is up, and that he cannot fact I cannot understand what object the sell it out in the West because the land boom Government has in giving a $500 bonus is off, he comes down to the Government and for this scrip; because that is practically says Open up the treasury and hand me what the thing amounts to. One of the out $500.' There is no justification for this; objects in giving the scrip was to reward out money to every speculator who gets we cannot open up the treasury and hand the volunteers who had gone to South into trouble. Every speculator in town Africa; they were rewarded by giving lots out West might as well come to the them a certain amount of land under Government and say, 'I bought some lots settlement conditions. Such plan would be a benefit to the country because it for a rise, but they didn't rise; now I

would increase the settlement on the land; can't dispose of them, and I would like but to-day there is not one piece of scrip you to open up the treasury, and let me get in the hands of the original holders. As my hands into it.' Speculators in town lots soon as there was a rumour abroad that have just as much right to come and ask for scrip was to be granted to the South $500 or $1,000 on a lot, as these speculators African volunteers, speculators got busy; have to ask for money on this scrip. This some scrip certificates were bought at measure will not do any good to the $100, $200, and some for even less. These volunteers who went to South Africa; it is certificates are in the hands of a few merely intended to open up the treasury, speculators. This measure is not being and hand out this money to the speculators.

Young.

Mr.

WHITE PHOSPHOROUS MATCHES BILL.

IN COMMITTEE.

Hon. Mr. CLORAN-I thoroughly agree Bill (H-2), An Act to incorporate The with the views just expressed by the Senator Prudential Life of Canada.-Hon. from Prince Albert. I appreciate the action of the Government in recognizing the duty it owes to those men who went out to South Africa to defend the interest of the empire; but why the Government should be called upon, by this legislation, to recognize the demands of speculators is more than the ordinary individual can understand. It would be a different matter if this Bill contained a provision that $500 should be paid to the original owner of the scrip-the veteran: in that case the country would approve of the action of the Government.

The House resumed in Committee of the Whole consideration of Bill (103), An Act to prohibit the manufacture and importation of matches made with white phosphorus. (In the Committee.)

On the 3rd clause:

Hon. Mr. BOSTOCK-Can the hon. leader of the Government give us information as to what quantity of material for the manu

Hon. Mr. WATSON-To himself or his facture of this class of matches the manuheirs.

facturers have on hand, and what time they are likely to require to use up that material? The hon. gentleman was to have the information for us at this stage.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-I did not understand that my hon. friend asked for information upon that point. I cannot give him the statement he desires. I do not know whether the Government possess the required information.

Hon. Mr. BOSTOCK-My question has reference to the date at which the law will come into force. I want to know to what extent it might injure the manufacturers, if it were put in operation on the 1st of January next, instead of the 1st of January,

Hon. Mr. CLORAN-To the volunteer himself; or, if the volunteer has died in the meantime, to his wife, children, or legitimate heirs. These should be entitled to the recognition demanded under the provisions of this Bill. But to extend generosity to speculators, is more than the country will stand; the Government ought to be wise and prudent enough to understand that. We fully appreciate the action of any government, in recognizing the debt due to the old soldiers of the country, but we do not and will not appreciate or sanction, if we can help it, the passage of any legislation that will recognize the speculation of individuals who have rendered no service to the country, but who, on the contrary, have probably done a great wrong by buying up Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-We might go this scrip and depriving the volunteer of through the Bill till we reach the last the full measure of his rights. The sugges-clause, which deals with this matter, and tion I have made is a fair proposition, and I shall make inquiry of the minister in appeals to the honesty of people in this charge of the Bill and ascertain if he has country. The people in the West do not any information on the subject. We could want to see speculators enriched at their go into committee again later on. expense, out of the treasury of this country. The hon. leader of the Government ought to take this matter into very serious consideration. It is a matter of honesty between the Government and the people; between the Government and the soldiers of the country.

The motion was agreed to.

1916.

Hon. Mr. DAVIS-What is the object in stopping the manufacture.

Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-People poison themselves eating the sulphur.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-I might instance a murder in Prince Edward Island in which

The Bill was read the third time, and a mother poisoned her three children

passed.

SECOND READINGS.
Bill (F-2), An Act for the relief of George
Gracie Smith.-Hon. Mr. De Veber.

Bill (G-2), An Act for the relief of Harry
Cracroft Pugh.-Hon. Mr. Derbyshire.

through the use of white phosphorus. On one or two other occasions as related in court, this substance has been used as a cheap poison for the purpose of committing criminal acts; it is very desirable that white phosphorus should not be made available for any purpose.

Hon. Mr. DAVIS-If these matches were not in ordinary use in the country, there would be no necessity of clause 4. ApparHon. Mr. WATSON-I do not at all ently the people of this country are using sympathize with the arguments advanced these matches and the business people of by the leader of the House. During a dis- the country are selling them. That being cussion in the House of Commons medical so, while it is perfectly right to prohibit the men testified that the fumes of these white manufacture because it is injurious to the sulphur matches were injurious to health, health of some of the people who are forced though in a lesser degree injurious than to work in those factories, why should we the harm suffered by those employed direct- go so far as to say that we prohibit the imly in the factories. If we stop the importa-portation of these matches when it is not tion of everything which could be used as a poison, we would be going far afield.

Hon. Mr. CLORAN-So that white phos- States, but in almost every country in phorus can come into the country. Hon. Mr. WATSON-Yes.

prohibiting, in the countries concerned, the importation and manufacture of matches made with white phosphorus. The convention was accepted at the outset by Ger

many, France, Holland, Switzerland, Denmark, Luxemburg and Italy. Afterwards Great Britain came into it. In 1908 nearly all the British possessions entered into the convention; then also the United States, likewise all the colonial possessions of France; in fact there is scarcely a civilized country that has not given its adherence to this convention, the terms of which are

along the lines of the Bill-prohibiting the importation, manufacture and sale.

Hon. Mr. DAVIS-My hon. friend puts it in that way, that we are going to assist in trying to boycott or stamp out the manufacture of these matches in any part of the world

Hon. Mr. WATSON-Made from white sulphur.

Hon. Mr. DAVIS-By the wild men of Borneo.

Hon. Mr. CLORAN-As a matter of in

terest, and to satisfy curiosity, the Government ought to be able to tell the country where these blooming matches are manufactured.

Hon. Mr. POWER-I do not think that it really makes any difference where they come from. I suppose my hon. friends are opposing this clause because they think it savours of protection; but, inasmuch as the Parliament of England, after due deliberation, entered this international agreement, we are quite safe in following their example.

The clause was adopted.

On clause 6, providing for petition for compulsory license.

Hon. Mr. POWER-Is not that a rather extraordinary step?

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-As I pointed out Hon. Mr. DAVIS-Yes; that is a horse the other day, the policy is an excellent of another colour; there might be some one. It seems to me that no patentee sense in that, but to say that we are going should be permitted to enjoy his patent if to prohibit the importation of matches of he does it to the detriment of the comthat kind, when they are used by the munity; there is no reason why the Govpeople here, for no other reason than that ernment of the day should not reserve to they assume that they are going to poison itself the right of granting a license upon some children here and there, is to my reasonable terms, that is upon terms as mind a very foolish piece of legislation. I to the compensation of the patentee, to draw attention to my hon. friend's own permit of manufacturers using whatever statement and would like to ask why clause may be the subject matter of that patent. 4 is needed, if Canadian manufacturers are That is what this clause particularly has not manufacturing those matches? He in view; if any one has a patent to prevent says they are not manufactured in civilized the manufacture of matches out of material countries; we must assume that they are other than white phosphorus, no injury not being manufactured in uncivilized is being done to that patentee if the Govcountries, for I do not suppose any ernment should exercise discretion in Indians are manufacturing these matches-issuing licenses subject to compensation so that, according to his own statement, being paid to him for the use of that parnone of these matches are manufactured. ticular material in the interests of the If so, what do we want of this clause?

Hon. Mr. CLORAN-In view of the state

public.

Hon. Mr. CLORAN-Is that not a dan

tion?

Hon. M. LOUGHEED-We will take chances on it.

ment by the hon. leader of the Govern- gerous principle to introduce in legislament, that the manufacture and importation of these matches is prohibited in nearly every civilized country of the world, owing to the national convention, it would be curious and interesting to know what country on earth is manufacturing them. If Germany, Great Britain, the United States and nearly every civilized country in the world does not, where do they come from? Is the Government in a position to tell us where these matches are manufactured?

Hon. Mr. CLORAN-That is just it, but as a matter of principle is it not dangerous? If I have a patent for a certain invention which may be a benefit to the human race, can anybody come and take my goods from me?

Hon. Mr. WATSON-He has to pay for it.