self. I understood as the hon. leader of the Government does, that when His Honour the Speaker said he was of opinion that the motion was out of order, that settled it that that was his decision. Hon. Mr. CHOQUETTE-There is a great difference between an opinion and a decision. The Speaker has said 'I am of a certain opinion but I will not decide;' I cannot appeal against that. His Honour says that he has a certain opinion, but he does not feel like establishing a precedent. The Speaker has said 'I feel that the point is well taken, but I do not feel inclined to decide.' The matter is not settled. The House can give a decision by voting against the amendment or by adopting it. When we are proceeding to adopt this course the leader of the Government insists upon a point of order, and the hon. gentleman from Halifax, who has refused in many cases when he was Speaker to give a decision Hon. Mr. POWER-I do not remember declining to give a decision. Hon. Mr. CHOQUETTE-The hon. leader has raised a question which is not before the House. Therefore, we are on the amendment and we have to vote for the amendment or against it. Hon. Mr. POIRIER-The question is becoming more and more perplexing and I should like to know where we stand. If I understood the Hon. Speaker, he expressed the opinion that the point of order was well taken, and afterwards he asked the hon. House to pass on it. Does that mean His Honour the Speaker is appealing from his own decision? His decision must be final, if not appealed against. discussion on the point. It is now too late to raise a question of order. Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-An hon. member can always raise a question of order. An hon. GENTLEMAN-Not the same one. Hon. Mr. BEIQUE-Yes, but when the point of order has been taken, and when it has been set aside, so to speak, by the suggestion of His Honour the Speaker and the House has acquiesced in this discussion of the amendment on its merits, it is too late to raise the point of order. It was open to any hon. member of this House to insist upon the Speaker's decision, being taken as a ruling. In such case His Honour the Speaker would have been bound to give his ruling; instead of giving a ruling he has invited the House to discuss the question on its merits, and the House has proceeded to do so. Some hon. GENTLEMEN-No, no. Hon. Mr. POWER-I did not understand His Honour the Speaker in the same way as the hon. member from DeSalaberry (Hon. Mr. Béique). I understood His Honour the Speaker to say 'In my opinion this motion is out of order, but I do not care to give a ruling or decision, and I feave that ruling to the House.' He did not say the House was to consider the matter on its merits. He said the question of deciding whether the motion was out of order or not was left to the House; I appeal to His Honour to say what he did mean. The hon. gentleman from Grandville (Hon. Mr. Choquette) has taken the ground that other business was entered upon. What happened was this: the hon. gentleman from Grandville undertook to say 'Well, the Speaker has given no decision, and I move this amendment,' and thereupon, before any action was taken by the House, the hon. leader of the Senate rose and insisted upon the point of order. Hon. Mr. BEIQUE-I propose, if the question is to be debated, to speak against the motion in amendment. I am inclined to think the point of order is well taken. What is the position? His Honour the Speaker expressed his opinion but did not proceed to Hon. Mr. BELCOURT-The point of give a ruling, and invited the House to con- order raised is not without some importance sider the matter on its merits, and to see and for the proper conduct of this matter whether the House would not take the it is desirable that we should know responsibility of deciding the matter. The exactly what we are doing. doing. My opinHouse has acquiesced in that sugges- ion is that there has been no ruling tion to this extent that we have by the Speaker. He has expressed proceeded to discuss the question on an opinion, but the presiding officer its merits. The position is now ex. of this Chamber, like the Speaker of every actly as it would be if we had been deliberative assembly when a point of order two days debating the question; surely it is raised, has to decide it. He has to prowas clearly an acquiescence by the House nounce upon it one way or another, he has in the course suggested by His Honour the to give an affirmative or negative decision. Speaker when we proceeded to have a long If we go on in this way, when a point of order is raised, and the Honourable Speaker also it has been thought desirable that the turns it loose in the assembly, no deliberat- Governor General should have the right to ive assembly is possible it is absolute exercise authority to prohibit the exportachaos. Therefore, in my opinion the Speaker tion of the crude article. is bound to give a decision one way or the other. He is bound to say that the point is well taken or not. He said 'I think it is well taken but I leave it to the House to decide.' There is no possibility of conducting the affairs of this Chamber, or any other deliberative assembly if that practice prevails. I am not concerned in the matter one way or the other; I am not going to vote for the amend. ment, I think it is too limited. If the hon. gentleman makes the amendment that every official in the country shall speak both languages I will vote for it. If we allow the Speaker to shirk the duty of deciding, he will do it time and again and we will have absolute chaos in the House. The SPEAKER-If I consult the opinion of the House, as indicated by the speeches which have been made, I have no hesitation at all in ruling the question out of order. Hon. Mr. BOSTOCK-I must say that the Leader of the Government has not given us very much explanation as to this Bill. It seems to me it is a somewhat important Bill. There is, at the present time, a considerable amount of excitement in his own province of Alberta over this question of oil, and it would seem that the people who were interested in this matter will be rather taken by surprise if they find that they are liable to have the exportation of this oil stopped by the Governor in Council. We should have some very good reasons why it is desirable to do this. The very fact of putting this matter in the hands of the Governor in-Council will place those people in such a position, that they will never know at what time this prohibition may be brought about. There may be a considerable amount of money invested in those oil wells; I understand it takes a considerable amount of money to find out exactly the value of an oil well, before the owners can really Hon. Mr. CHOQUETTE-Is that a prece- put it on the market. Under this law the dent? Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL-I rise to a point of order. The rules are very distinct: after the Speaker gives a ruling it cannot be debated, and the hon. gentleman has already spoken about a dozen times. If we carry on this debate in the manner in which it has been conducted, we may just as well go into committee and talk until daylight. The SPEAKER-The hon. gentleman has a perfect right to appeal from the decision. Hon. Mr. CHOQUETTE-I am not appealing. owners then may find that the Governor in Council issues an order that they cannot export their oil. They may have a great deal more oil than is required for that particular part of the country; it may be much more to their benefit to ship this oil in this country. We ought to have a good across the line, than to ship it east or west deal more explanation about this Bill before we proceed. Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-What is the object? Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-The prohibition does not necessarily come into operation upon the discovery of oil. It seems to me The motion was agreed to, and the Bill that if oil is discovered in sufficient quantity was read the third time. EXPORT ACT AMENDMENT BILL. SECOND READING. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED moved the second reading of Bill (84), An Act to amend the Export Act. to warrant the intervention of the Governor in Council prohibiting its exportation, the energy and enterprise of Canada should be sufficient to establish refineries in our own country. This is a principle that is recognized with reference to many of our natural resources; it seems to me it is not only a wise policy, but it is most desirable in the He said: This is a very short Bill. It interests of the development of Canada, proposes giving powers to the Governor in that we should proceed to develop our naCouncil to pass regulations prohibiting the tural resources, and particularly in the export from Canada of petroleum in crude conversion of the raw into the refined or partly manufactured state. Owing to the product. This is the case, not only with opening up of petroleum fields, not only in reference to many articles which I might eastern Canada, particularly in New Bruns- mention, but particularly with reference wick, but in some of the western provinces to oil. My recollection is that the sugges REVISED EDITION tion came from the Imperial authorities. It is well known that there has been a desire on the part of the Imperial authorities to use oil as fuel for the fleet, and an effort was made in that direction a couple of years ago. The difficulty of procuring oil stood in the way, to some extent, in the carrying out of the object which the Admiralty had in view. Now if it should turn out that Canada is a fertile field in the production of oil, is there any good reason why we should not keep within the boundaries of the country the crude oil and refine it to the advantage of our people, and the building up, not only of our own industry, but the carrying out of the Imperial object to which I have referred namely, to furnish the fleet of the empire with the fuel which is preferable to any other-if it is possible for us to do so. Hon. Mr. BELCOURT-Does my hon. friend know of any Imperial enactment? Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-There was communication some time ago between the Imperial authorities and the Government of Canada with reference to adopting regulations of this character., Hon. Mr. BELCOURT-I was under the impression that there was actually an Imperial enactment on the subject preventing the exportation of oil except to certain parts of the British Empire. prohibition by the Ontario Government, years ago, of the exportation of logs has resulted in the erection on the Canadian side of large lumber mills. The prevention of the exportation of petroleum in a crude or partly refined state will have a good effect in creating, and adding to the prosperity of refineries already in this country. Then subclause 2 of clause 1 shows that the putting into effect of this regulation has to be sanctioned by Parliament next session; therefore we are not giving too much power to the Government or to any one minister, for if the minister fails to have this sanctioned during the following section of Parliament, his ruling becomes null and void. This is a Bill in the right direction. Hon. Mr. KERR-I do not agree with my hon. friend. I have a great objection to legislation by Order in Council. We have in Canada now, an enterprise which is capable of developing, and we should not interfere with it. If the oil production, now promised in the west, turns out to be of real value it will be time enough to pass an Act dealing with the subject; in such case the country will have had notice of the intention of Parliament, but this system of legislating in an upstairs room of the government buildings is, to my mind, most objectionable and most calculated to discourage any kind of enterprise. With such a sword hanging over them for the Government of the day can, without a day's notice, suspend their operations-men with capital invested in the industry are exposed to the possibility of loss. If the Government is going to take the responsibility of saying that the exportation should be prohibited, then the prohibition should be in the form of definite legislation, and not an Act giving the Gov Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-The Department of the Interior went so far as to pass regulations, which are now in force, as to the oil fields, to which my hon. friend directed our attention, so that those who are now operating those oil fields have had notice of the desire of the Government of Canada to enforce this policy. A question has risen as to whether those regulations can be en-ernment power to do this by Order in Counforced, in the absence of such legislation as that which is contained in the Bill. I am sorry I cannot give my hon. friend the information which he has asked as to the Imperial Government having legislated upon that question. Hon. Mr. BELCOURT-I think there has been legislation. Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-This is a Bill in the right direction because I am in favour of always developing in this country all those resources that we can develop ourselves. The policy adopted by the province of Quebec. with regard to pulp wood has resulted in large paper mills being erected there, very much to the advantage of that province. The cil. This proposed Bill is not a mere regulation of a trade. Men may put a large amount of capital into this business and have it paralysed in twenty-four hours, without notice to them of any kind. Any one can see that in a country like this, developing our resources as we are, there should be more freedom of acting; legislation should not be enacted until it is found advisable to do so in the public interest. This has not been shown in this case. I regard this as a most objectionable Bill. Hon. Mr. BEIQUE—If Parliament was always in session I would be tempted to side with the views expressed by my hon. friend, 'but as Parliament is not always in session 515 Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—It is proposed that the Minister of the Interior shall be substituted for the Minister of Railways and Canals and the Department of Railways and Canals for the Railway Board, respectively. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill CANADA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT BILL. it seems to me that this Bill is in the right direction. As was very properly. stated by the honourable gentleman from De Lanaudière (Hon. Mr. Casgrain), the resolution, whatever it in may be, force only remains until the meeting of Parliament, and if it is not then endorsed by Parliament, the regulation was read a second time. lapses. If there was no power in the Governor in Council to make regulations during the recess, the very condition of things which the hon. member has in mind, might occur; large expenditures might be incurred in preparing for the export of the article, and then, when Parliament was ready to act, its action would affect vested rights and interests, and destroy the value of the expenditure, by way of advertising or otherwise, which might have been incurred. The legislation is proper; we have on our statutes many instances where the Governor in Council has taken the power to pass regulations. reading of Bill (170) An Act to amend the Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED moved the second Canada Grain Act. authority to the Minister of Trade and ComHe said: The object of this Bill is to give merce to administer a fund which will be paid out of the Consolidated Fund of Canada, for the payment of grain charges, in connection with the terminal and interior elevators which have been built by the Government. Hon. Mr. DAVIS-Do we get that back in The motion was agreed to, and the Bill fees? was read a second time. IRRIGATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED moved the second Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-We get it back. Inasmuch Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-No. tors it is necessary to have the command of as the Government is handling those elevanection with grain placed in those elevaa certain amount of cash, owing to advances which are made, from time to time, in contors. Of course, those advances are taken out of the shipments and are carried to the credit of the Government; so it is not a payment out, but an administration of a fund. reading of Bill (138), An Act to amend the Irrigation Act. He said: The Irrigation Act is a general water law governing the administration practically of all uses of water in the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan and the district of Keewatin. It has been amended from time to time as the result of the experience the Government has obtained in administering this law. The Bill before us does not introduce any substantially new features. The amendments are rather of a domestic character, the result of applying to the Bill the experience which the depart-book-keeping. ment has obtained from time to time. Hon. Mr. BEIQUE-What is the effect of clause 7? Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-It proposes to vest in the Minister of the Interior the power of taking certain land, instead of in the Minister of Railways as at present. As the administration of the Act is entirely under the Minister of the Interior, my hon. friend will at once observe the desirability of the Act being administered by the one minister instead of by a divided authority, as is now the case. their own way; it is simply a question of Hon. Mr. WATSON-The elevators pay Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-Yes. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a second time. COMPANIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. SECOND READING. reading of Bill (177), An Act to Amend the Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED moved the second Companies Act. Companies Act, to permit of the issuance of He said: This Bill proposes to amend the share warrants; it also describes what the rights of the holders of those share warrants are. This cannot be done at the present have had to do with companies, and partime as most hon. gentlemen know, who ticularly in the financing of companies in Europe the share warrant is a very much more popular form of certificate of the interest of the holder in a company, than the ordinary share certificates, and it is therefore proposed to amend the Act along those lines. Hon. Mr. BOSTOCK—Has any application been made to the department to have this done? Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-There have been many applications, and it is owing to those applications that the Bill has been introduced. MONTREAL HARBOUR COMMISSION- SECOND READING. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED moved the second reading of Bill (191), An Act to provide for further advances to the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal. He said: This Bill proposes to authorize the Governor in Council to advance to the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal nine million dollars, distributed in payments to be made during three years. Hon. Mr. McSWEENEY-What is the rate The motion was agreed to, and the Bill of interest? was read a second time. CANADA TEMPERANCE ACT AMEND- SECOND READING. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED moved the second reading of Bill (180), An Act to Amend the Canada Temperance Act. He said: The object of this Bill is to assimilate the Canada Temperance Act to the electoral conditions which obtain in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. The provisions of the present Act are not in all respects applicable to the submission of the question before the electors of those provinvinces, and the Bill simply brings into conformity the machinery of the Act with the conditions which obtain there as to election lists. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-This is provided for in the Bill. Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-I want to congratulate the Government on bringing down this Bill. I am only sorry that they did not bring it down sooner. If it had been passed sometime ago many of the unemployed men in Montreal would have been employed during the past winter. In making these advances the Government lose nothing. I do not know if any other harbour in the country meets its payment regularly. Various advances of this kind have been made for the benefit of Canada, that the trade of the country should be carried cheaply to and from the port of Montreal, and the Government is not out one cent. The port of Montreal pays the interest Hon. Mr. WATSON-This is the Scott regularly and will continue to do so. They Act, is it not? have increased the harbour dues. In fact I have been asked to bring up this increase Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-Commonly known in the way of a complaint, but I declined as the Scott Act. Hon. Mr. WATSON-The Scott Act has been submitted in Manitoba on previous occasions many years ago. I do not see any necessity for changes. Hon. Mr. McSWEENEY-Are there not a couple of counties there now under the Canadian Temperance Act? Hon. Mr. WATSON-I do not think so. no to do so, because the increase of dues was necessary to provide money to meet the interest on advances made by the Government. The Bill is the right direction. Hon. Mr. BOSTOCK-Are they deepening the harbour of Montreal? Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN: Certainly. Hon. Mr. DANDURAND-I see that one of the objects of making this advance is Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-There are to complete the construction of the terminal radical changes, but the result of the sub-facilities of the harbour of Montreal for mission of the question has suggested the desirability of making certain changes in the machinery necessary to properly submit and enforce it. which plans, specifications and estimates have been approved by the Governor in Council. Could the honourable gentleman tell us if these are the plans that were prepared some four or five years ago by an The motion was agreed to, and the Bill expert who came over from England, and was read a second time. who had charge of the superintendence and |