Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-I cannot tell that. I can indicate what the proposed programme for 1914 is, upon which there will be an application of those advances

QUEBEC HARBOUR COMMISSIONERS'

BILL.

SECOND READING.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED moved the second reading of Bill (192), An Act to provide for further advances to the Quebec Harbour Commissioners.

He said: This is to authorize the Governor in Council to make an advance of two million dollars to the corporation of the Quebec Harbour Commissioners, to be expended in the improvement of the harbour of that city.

Hon. Mr. BOSTOCK.-Is this commission doing as well as the commission in Montreal? How are they getting on?

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED.-I understand that this commission since it came into office has been able to meet its obligations. The present commission was appointed two years go, and since then it has met its obligations; up to that time it could not be said that such was the case.

Hon. Mr. CHOQUETTE-I congratulate the Government upon the loan to the Montreal Harbour Commissioners. I generally congratulate the leader of the Government when he is doing right. The amount required by the Quebec Harbour Commissioners is not as large as that given to Montreal, but our harbour does not require so much money, because Quebec has a natural deep water harbour. As for the interest, I am sure that Quebec has always met its obligations, and in this case I have no doubt it will do better than Montreal. I must say that the hon. commissioners so far have been doing very well. They have accomplished a great deal of work, and I hope they will do yet more. The terminals of the Transcontinental railway ought to have been ready by now, but I hope they will soon be ready and I trust that when more money is needed the Government will give it.

AGREEMENT.

SECOND READING.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED moved the second

reading of Bill (196), An Act respecting The Canadian Pacific Railway Company, The Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada, and The Toronto Harbour Commissioners.

He said: This is a Bill to permit the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, the Grand Trunk Railway Company, The Toronto Terminals Company and the Toronto Harbour Commissioners to expropriate certain properties for the building of a viaduct which has been mutually agreed upon in that city. Hon. Mr. BOSTOCK.-Has the work been started yet?

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED.-No, I do not think the work has been started; the plans have been approved. It is proposed to enter upon the work at once.

The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a second time.

INDIAN ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

REPORTED FROM COMMITTEE. The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on Bill (114), An Act to amend the Indian Act.

(In the Committee.)

On clause 1.

Hon. Mr. DAVIS-To what schools does this clause refer?

Hon Mr. LOUGHEED-The object is that in provinces, other than the western provinces, where the Government would not be warranted incurring the very large expenditures involved in building Indian schools, the Government should have au thority to declare any existing schoolsthat is schools carried on by the municipalities-an Indian school for the purpose of educating say one, two or more Indian scholars that might be in that particular community.

Hon. Mr. DAVIS-Indian scholars are not educated by any school in the municipality, unless there is some religious denomination to educate them. Speaking generally that has been my experience.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-This is simply to deal with isolated cases where there may be

a certain school to be an Indian school.

towns or larger villages, the result is more or less demoralizing to the Indians. There have been cases where it has been decided to dispose of the reserves belonging to Indians contiguous to the larger communities. The question arising in all such cases was this: the Indian recognized the desirability of selling the reserve, yet held out for his own terms-those terms invariably being that the whole of the money should be paid over to the band instead of half of it being invested as is the policy of the Indian Act, for the Indians. Take

for instance the case in British Columbia which arose there a short time ago, and in which there was no question as to the desirability of the reserve being sold. It was very demoralizing to the Indian to have his reserve adjoining a very large city, but the Indian said, 'we will sell this reserve providing the whole of the money be given to us.' We won't permit the Dominion Government to receive any of this money to be invested for us, as is the demand of the Act. The consequence was that the provincial Government, of its own motion, entered into negotiation with the Indians and paid the entire fund over to the Indians. My hon. friend will not undertake to say that the payment of that entire amount to these Indians was a wise or a politic proceeding; at the same time they would have refused to surrender their title had this money not been paid over to them in its entirety.

Hon. Mr. WATSON-What right had the provincial Government to take that land?

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-They dealt with the Indian.

Hon. Mr. WATSON-What right had they to deal with the wards of the Dominion Government?

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-The contention of the Government of British Columbia is that the reversion of the reserve belongs to the provincial authoriy, and that immediately the Indians disappear from that reserve, the reversion passes over to the provincial authority.

Hon. Mr. WATSON-Did the Indians voluntarily leave that reserve?

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-They voluntarily negotiated, or allowed negotiations on their behalf with the provincial authorities for the purchase of the reserve, and the Indians, entirely irrespective of the Dominion

Government, surrendered their title to the provincial authorities, and the whole of the

purchase money was paid over to the Indians. I have no doubt that before very long that enormous sum-some $200,000 or more--will be dissipated. It would have been very much more to the interest of the Indians if the federal Government could have intervened in their behalf, and could have transferred that reserve to the provincial authorities upon terms which they themselves would have dictated to the authorities, and would have been placed in a position to have controlled the purchase money which in due course was paid over by the province to the Indians.

Some hon. GENTLEMEN-Hear, hear.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-The object of this legislation is to permit of the Dominion Government intervening where a condition of that kind arises; they can negotiate for the transfer of the reserve upon terms which, of course, will be advantageous to the Indians. They then pay over one-half of the money to the Indians, and invest the other half.

Hon. Mr. DAVIS-There would be no objection to that, but I want to draw my hon. friend's attention to the fact that to-day there is an agitation in the settled part of Saskatchewan or Alberta around those Indian reserves. It is very well known to my hon. friend who is from the West, that the Indians exercised a very great deal of

judgment in selecting tracts of land for reserves, and naturally the settlers coming in look with jealous eyes to those tracts. My hon. friend wants to sell those lands and transfer those Indians to other reserves; the to these new reserves. new comers will still look with hungry eyes

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-This money belongs to the Indian, and if he is transferred to another reserve, and that reserve comes into value, the Indian is that much ahead.

Hon. Mr. DAVIS-I have no objection at all to your paying over to the Indian a certain amount of money, and reserving one-half of the money or any amount of the money, but I do object to the Government taking the property of those people without their consent. There is no doubt you can get their consent; British Columbia got their consent to a sale of property of $200.000 that was worth several millions of dol

lars.

Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-Hear, hear.

Hon. Mr. DAVIS-I understand that property was worth over three million dollars, but the British Columbia Government came along and managed to get hold of it-I do not know by what means and took it away from those poor people for $200,000; and now my hon. friend complains that they have squandered that money. I understand the Government drove the Indians off the reserve, and burned their houses. I do not approve of this legislation at all, because it is not going to stop; if you are going to force the Indians off their reserves you will have trouble. My hon. friend knows what political pull and political influence is. There was a provision in this Bill that a town must have not less than 8,000 of a population, but now that has been cut out entirely and any kind of a little place of eight or nine houses, I suppose, would be considered a town, and if they had people around that had enough political pull, they might bring this Act into force. I know just exactly what will happen, because I have been up against this thing; the same agitation has been going on at Duck Lake for seven or eight years, to get those Indians from their locations. People say, 'My land is of no value so long as those Indians are around here,' and then they come down here, and advance arguments that it is better for the Indians to be away. I have not seen anything wrong with the Indians at Duck Lake. They have large bands of cattle, they are self-supporting, they are educating their children, they are getting along finely. I am satisfied that fewer of them squander their money around the village than do the whites and halfbreeds. Still the agitation is going on to get rid of them. If this Bill goes through, we will have delegations coming down here trying to get the Government to remove those people and take them away to some other place.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-My hon. friend is laboring under a misapprehension; it is not the Government that does it; it is Parliament that does it. If my hon. friend will look at the provisions of the section he will find the Government sets this machinery in motion; it goes to the Exchequer Court; the Exchequer Court makes a report upon it; the report is brought down at the next session of Parliament; and then under sub-clause 5 of the clause he will find.

from which it is found expedient to remove the Indians, to be sold or leased by public auction So that my hon. friend will have a voice in this just as much as anybody else. It all subject to Parliament.

find that those gentlemen I referred to a Hon. Mr. DAVIS-My hon. friend will while ago, who want to drive the Indians off their land, will be in the lobby here trying to get the thing put through. These Indians are the wards of the Government, and up to the present time we have treated them fairly. However, we have taken their lands and everything they possess, and have given them some small reserves, I say it is a shame to take away those reserves unless the Indian himself is satisfied.

Hon. Mr. BEIQUE—I understand that the

policy of the Government and of all gov ernments has always been to maintain reserves for Indians; if the Indians have to be removed from any reserves belonging to them, the policy has been that, instead of purchasing the reserve by paying a sum of money, another reserve is substituted

for the one which is taken. That is the proper policy, otherwise the money might be spent or squandered by the Indians, and their families might be left as a burden on the country. Now this Bill provides for the removal of Indians from one reserve to another for the purpose of the development of the country. Under the Bill this machinery will take effect only when the removal is required in the interest of a development of a section of the country. The provision has been heretofore limited, I understand, to cities. Now this limitation is wiped out and the effect of the Bill is extended. I am altogether in accord with the economy of the Bill. It is provided by this first section that the recommendation of the removal is to be obtained from commendation is to be presented to Parliathe Exchequer Court of Canada, which rement for action. This provision is limited to the removal of the Indians from the reserve, that is, it is limited to the expropriation; but when we come to sub-clause 7 of clause 6 we find this:

7. The Indians shall not be removed, or the

reserve or any part thereof be sold, leased or in any other way dealt with until another suitable reserve has been obtained and set apart for the Indians.