on the question; but I feel that the point which my hon. friend from British Columbia makes is right. That is why this allegation can cover all reserves, and the same affirmation can be made against all reserves. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-The Government Government allowed the provincial authorities to go in and make their own arrangements with the Indians. Apparently the Indian agent, and the inspector of Indian agencies in British Columbia, knew nothing about this particular case until it was practically settled. That is a point to which should be the judge, upon proper representthe attention of the Government should be ation being made as to what is retarding drawn that those arrangements between the settlement. We cannot conceive, perhaps, provincial governments and the Indians should not be allowed to be made in the at the present moment a case of the kind, future. This clause under consideration pro- there is a reserve which may not be said to but let us assume by way of illustration that vides that in case an Indian reserve adjoins be within the immediate neighbourhood of or is situated wholly within an incorporated a large community such as a city, town or town or city, or in the immediate neighbourhood thereof, or which contains more land village, but which may be ten or fifteen than is necessary for the use of the band, miles distant-a reserve which may occupy several hundred thousand acres, a reserve or which is so situated as to materially retard the development of the surrounding standing there unoccupied, unsettled, retardcountry, the Government may take action.ing the growth of the cities or towns nearest The latter part of the clause which I have to it, and in no way contributing to the quoted is very wide indeed, and might be building up of roads and bridges. made to apply to almost any part of the country or any reserve. I do not see why the Government wants that particular power. I could understand the necessity of it where the reserve adjoins or is situated wholly or partly within an incorporated town or city or its immediate neighbourhood. But when they ask power to take a reservation which is situated where it might materially retard the natural development of the surrounding country' I think it is going too far, and I am going to move that these words be struck out: Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-What reserve is like that? Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-I can point out many reserves like that. Take for instance the reserve near Panoka, the Sarcee reserve ten miles from Calgary. Take for instance a section of the Blackfoot reserve. What advantage is there to the Indians that those reserves, covering a couple of hundred thousand acres, should be locked up, that settlers should not be permitted to go thereupon, that the towns and villages which are depending upon the development of the suror which is so situated as to materially rounding country should be deprived of retard the natural development of the surrounding country. that enormous area of land, that the farmers Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-That is entirely roads and bridges built on those reserves. and others should be deprived of having the policy of the section. Does my hon. Those reserves remain in a state of nature; friend contend that an Indian reserve should roads are not opened up, bridges are not be continued that is retarding the settlement of the surrounding country? Surely my hon. built; they stand in the way of the devefriend is not in favour of retarding settle-lopment of the country. Surely the Govnent. The Exchequer Court and Parliament have both to pronounce upon it; it is surrounded by every safeguard. There cases of that kind. For instance I know of such a case my self-in fact I know of several cases in the Northwest-where Indian reserves seriously retard settlement and not only the settlers, but every interest within reach of that settlement, and where it would be manifestly in the interest of the Indians themselves that they should be removed to another locality. are Hon. Mr. DANDURAND-Could not the same allegation be made against any and all reserves? I know nothing of the Indians in the West, and I should rather hold to the opinions of western members in this House ernment charged with this duty is a very much better judge as to what should be done in the interest of the Indians than anyone else. One would fancy that the Government of the country, who are the trustees of the Indians, have not been watching the interests of the Indians. If there is anything which Canada deserves to be congratulated upon since Confederation it is the way is has treated the Indians. Hon. Mr. DAVIS-Up to now. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-Yes, up to now. Canada deserves to be congratulated for its administration of Indian affairs-the protection given to the Indian, and the administration of all his interests-and this is in that line, and is a most forward movement. I say advisedly that it is a more progressive movement in the interest of the Indians than almost anything that will be found on the statute-book. I say this from my per sonal knowledge, having lived in that country for a great number of years, and having some knowledge of what is in the best interest of the Indians. Hon. Mr. DAVIS-Does not the hon. gentleman know that treaties were made with the Indians? Do you propose now, without the consent of one of the parties to the treaty, to take away the property of these people? The hon. gentleman talks about the country standing by its agreements. Surely the treaty with the poor Indian should be respected and observed the same as other treaties. Long ago the Government of Canada and the Indians signed a treaty by which the Indians were to retain these reserves, and the Government agreed to this time we have no trouble with the Indians, simply because we have kept our treaties. If we agreed to give the Indian anything, he got it. This land was given to them; now you are starting to put the thin end of the wedge in to break up the treaty. It is not right, and it will lead to trouble. The best thing to do is to leave the Indian alone. Hon. Mr. TALBOT-Are there any instances in which the Indians have agreed to give up their reserves? In all cases, I believe their consent could be obtained. I do not like the idea of compelling them to abandon their reserves. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-I can tell of cases of this kind. It is a well known fact, where it has been in the interest of certain indi viduals to secure a surrender of the Indian title, that they have done so through fraudulent or corrupt means, getting a certain section of the band to vote in favour of what The policy up to this time has been to leave would manifestly not be in their interests. these matters to the Indians, and they have that there should be no interference with those reserves except both parties consented. That is the ground I take, that the consent of the Indians should be obtained. The hon. gentleman talks about the re-voted as to whether they should surrender serves preventing the development of the their interests. It is not a difficult thing country. In what way does the Indian for hon. gentlemen to imagine the means keep back the development of the country? that may readily be resorted to by interested From my knowledge of the Indians of the parties to corrupt the Indian and induce reserve, I say they are making more wealth him to come to a certain conclusion. The than those who wish to remove them. They interest of the Indian can be very much bethave their schools and churches; they farm ter administered in the way I have inditheir lands, and have large bands of cattle,cated, surrounded by all those safeguards and the Government look after getting good by the Governor in Council, by the Exche breeds of cattle for them. Those reserves quer Court, by Parliament itself than to are their homes, and you have no right to permit interested parties to promote their interfere with them, unless they are satis-own ends, to go upon Indian reserves and fied themselves to part with their lands. My corrupt a certain section of the Indians hon. friend says they tie up great tracts of that they may vote in favour of a surrender lands. The average Indian is just as astute of the very valuable interests which those as many of the white men. If you can show reserves represent. I can say with the greatthe Indian that it is to his advantage to est measure of confidence that the interests sell a portion of his reserve, you will find of the Indians are very much better prothe Indians prepared to sell. They have tected in the hands of the Government than done it before. We have had surrenders of if they were left to themselves. parts of reserves. There are lots of cases in the West where the Indian found that he Hon. Mr. WATSON-Does the hon. gentleman propose to take away the old system of surrendering lands? Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-No. Hon. Mr. WATSON-Then you still leave the degrading influence that you speak of. had more land than he could look after, and he sold it, because he likes to have the money. There is no difficulty about that; but it is one thing to get him to release a portion of his reserve for the purpose of getting its value in money, and have the money invested so that he will get the bene- Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-No, because in fit of it, and it is quite another thing to the event of the Government being apprised, take him and his family away from their as they necessarily would be, of means of reserve to some other place without his that kind being resorted to, they can interconsent. We made treaties with those In- vene and place in motion this machinery. dians and they should not be broken. Up Had this machinery been used in con nection with the reserve to which I have referred in British Columbia, those Indians would have been much better off-in fact, to the extent of a very material amount. Hon. Mr. BOSTOCK-I tried to point out to the hon. gentleman just now that you had this machinery at that time, and it was not put into force. That Act was passed in 1911, when the question of the Songhees reserve came up. It was practically passed for the purpose of dealing with that reserve, to complete the negotiations carried on in British Columbia; that Act of 1911 was in force at that tine, but the Government allowed that arrangement to go on with the provincial Government with regard to the Kitsilano reserve. find among white men; they take some days to consider a proposition, and they have thoroughly to understand the negotiation being made with them for the surrender of Even supposing any portion of the reserve. a reserve should retard settlement in cer tain districts, Mr. Indian has some rights and we should respect those rights. I am entirely in sympathy with the suggestion of the leader of the Opposition in that we should omit those words. If we take the power we have in this Act to dispossess the Indian by the method suggested in this Bill in the case of an incorporated town, or city, or in the immediate neighbourhood, we are going far enough. Generally speaking we should have the consent of the Indian for a change of this and you may have the de Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-No we did not graded Indian in the town or city, but if allow it. Hon. Mr. BOSTOCK-It was curious that it was carried on without the Government knowing anything about it. There was an Indian agent at Vancouver. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-He was not a party to it. This was entirely on the responsibility of the provincial authorities and the Indians themselves. Hon. Mr. BOSTOCK-If the Government was not able to stop that arrangement with the Act of 1911 in force, how can they do it in the future. Hon. Mr. WATSON-I fully agree with the object of the Bill, so far as removing Indians from the towns. There is no question about that at all, but I do think you are going further than is absolutely necessary when you say "or which is so situated as to naturally retard the development of the surrounding country." I am in sympathy with the hon. gentleman from Prince Albert when he says he believes the treaties made with the Indians ought to be carried out entirely. I do not think the methods described by the Leader of the House are very often adopted to get Indian reserves. I know something of the Indians and my idea is that they are very very careful in council. They elect the best possible men in their council, and they meet, and have frequent conference with the Government officials before they agree to surrender any portion of their reserve. I have been somewhat familiar with their dealings in the West for some years, and my idea of the Indians and the chiefs and their councils is that these are composed of just about as careful and cautious people as you would you get out in the rural districts there is no degradation among the Indians any more than there is among the white men. Hon. Mr. DAVIS-My hon. friend alludes to the demoralizing influence of men going in to get a surrender of land from Indians. My hon. friend suggests in place of these men using influence with the Indian, trying to get him to surrender his own property, they want to come down here and use the influence of some other people to get them to take away the property of these Indians. As the hon. gentleman from Portage la Prairie has said the Indians elect the most astute men to their councils. The Indians do not jump at conclusions; they take a majority vote of the whole band. They consider the matter not only for hours but for days, and Mr. Indian will not agree to anything unless he thinks it is for his benefit. I do not think it is fair not to give him a voice in disposing of property given to him. We were very glad to make the treaties with Indians in the early days; when all the Indian warfare was going on in the United States we were glad to get our treaties settled. Now that the Indians are settled and peaceful to pass an Act of Parliament taking away any portion of their property without their consent is not right, we should be ashamed to do it. A treaty is a treaty. Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-I am in favour of striking out those words 'or which is so situated as to materially retard the development of the surrounding country.' I have been in that country and I understand the Indians near the city may become demoralized, but when they are away from cities I believe they become so. I have in my hand a petition from the Chief Joseph Laurent of St. Francis, Yamaska county, Quebec, praying on behalf of the Abenakis as that the Bill to amend the Indian Act respects the appropriation of the Indian reserve now before Parliament, may not become law. The purpose of this request would be that the Abenakis Indians would not be included in this. On their reserve, which is only a thousand arpents, there is one Methodist church, two Protestant churches, two presbyteries, one convent, one Protestant school, about one hundred houses, several other buildings, about 400 people; most of the Abenakis can write and speak in French and English besides their own language, those people would like this particular reserve to be omitted from the Bill. Judging by the long request in this petition they seem to have great faith in the Senate. They say the Government is their father and Parliament is their mother, and we should never go back on our children and we should protect them and so on. I know on this reserve they are far advanc. ed in civilization. tain those properties and at the lowest price possible. from any government-as for other reserves— would, by this petition, pray this Honourable Senate to exempt them from the application of this amendment or to include therein a proviso the Government, as the Abenakis, at the beginshowing that, in fact, they are the protegees of ning of the colony, have protected their new French allies. The Abenakis here not holding their reserve Honourable Senators: Your native Abenakis, minors in law and in politics, consider your govvernment as their father and the sitting House as their mother and, consequently, rest assured that their father and mother will never leave their minor children exposed to the covetousness of their major children, the white men. donald, Sir John Thompson, as also Sir Wilfrid Laurier, in many questions settled at the satisfaction of the Abenakis proprietors, who will be everlastingly grateful. Thus have acted the late Sir John A. Mac The Abenakis' intent is not to positively oppose the apparent end of the amendment: to make easier the expropriation of Indian lands; but they ask that it can be done in cases of great necessity only and never without the proprietor's assent. The same has been done under the ex-government when private individuals, Abenakis, have been paid for their re spective lands, according to location, some $100, others $300, $400 and $600 per superficial acre, Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-We are not inter- as have paid two companies: the Quebec, fering with them. can Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-They will be very glad to hear that from the Government. There is no exemption of any reserve here. They take for granted that you can expropriate their reserve, and I think you also, and they ask that they be omitted from it. They say the white people around have been casting envious eyes at their reserve, and have been encroaching on them for years past and they are down to one thousand arpents or acres now and they say there are people now that have come up to Ottawa and hade representation that it was only worth $75 an arpent in order to get the Government to agree to have it go for a price, and they say in this request they are getting as much as $800 an acre. The petition was presented to me and reads as follows: To the Most Honourable the Senate of Canada, etc., etc., Ottawa. May it please this Honourable Senate: That the Bill to amend the Indian Act as respects the appropriation of the Indian reserves by the Government, and which has already been read a third time, is most alarming for the Abenakis of St. François, who have worked since 25 or 50 years for themselves and their children; that at any unexpected time they could be dispossessed of their lands by the covetousness of neighbours who always wish to ob Montreal and Southern Railway and the Richelieu and Ontario Navigation Company, the first wharf and road at the river St. François. to enlarge its railway and the other for the The Abenakis have sold among themselves building lots at the rate of $400 to $800 per acre; and some white men, from Pierreville, have estimated at Ottawa, it seems, the Abenakis' lands at $75 by acre. It is evidently what they wanted to pay and they suggested that price to the Government. Would it be incompatible with law, with equity, that an Indian receive the full value of his property? Would not the opposite make of him a slave rather than a protégé? Governments enact laws for the protection of the moose, the roebuck, even of the partridge and the hare which is worth ten cents, and the security of Indian lands, the property of the aborigines would be exposed, the expropriation of these lands would be attempted at the lowest prices possible if the neighbours were listened to by the Government. Therefore, in the present case, the Abenakis earnestly pray the Honourable Senate to be pleased to look at the security of their lands, which have been so much encroached upon in the past, considering that their village reserve contains actually but about 1,000 superficial acres the space owned by two or three white farmers. They also pray that notice be taken that on this small reserve are to be found one Catholic Church, two Protestant churches, two presbyteries, one convent-academy, one Protestant school, about one hundred houses and several other buildings and about 400 people. Most of the Abenakis can write and speak in French and English, besides their own language; and their SO cultivated intelligence will ever be grateful for the protection to them given. And they will ever pray. Reserve of the Abenakis of St. François, Yamaska county, May 18, 1914. Jos. de Gonzague, priest, missionary to the Abenakis. Urbain J. Nolett, councillor. H. L. Masa, professeur protestant. Jos. Laurent, ancien chef. William Watso, ex-chef. Ambroise Obimsaurer. Philippe de Gonzague. Louis de Gonzague. Le chef Jules Paul Demers. Ambroise Denis. Louis Denis. Louis Portnerf. Elie Wananolet. P.S.-Many members of the tribe are absent, gone a hunting and fishing. one of them: For the propagation of the faith in the wilds of America, 1865. of the reserve. They say that it is holding back civilization and progress, that it is preventing modern improvements from going ahead along the banks of the river St. Lawrence. The only thing it has done is to preserve a great big natural park, with a frontage facing the St. Lawrence, which is more of an ornament than a great many farms eastward or westward of it. If we are going to acquiesce in this proposal, immediately a cabal will be started to have the Caughnawaga reserve broken up. These Indians have what I consider one of the most beautiful churches in the province of Quebec and I would strongly advise all my colleagues, if they happen to be in Caughnawa, just to visit the church and the presbytery. Charlevois, the great historian Hon. Mr. BOYER-The case in point is of Canada, lived in that presbytery, and that the Caughnawaga reserve is within ten they have kept his room intact. They posmiles of Montreal. We have had a band sess the great relics of former days. The of Indians there composed mostly of Iro- bells of the church were presented to them quois that have been settled in that country by Louis the 14th. The organ was given to since the time of Louis XIV. They have a them by a religious corporation-a correserve on the river St. Lawrence, bounded poration of merchants in Paris. All the on the east by La Prairie, and on the west religious vessels were given by an old merby Chateauguay, and on the south by Nap-chant in Paris, with an inscription on every ierville. Some eighteen or twenty years ago, before Sir Wilfrid Laurier got into power, the Government appointed a special agent to go through the Caughnawaga reserve, because the Indians were complaining of the encroachment of the white people on their reserve. They appointed Michael Wallbank to make an investigation, and his statement was that there was really encroachment on the part of white settlers on the Indian reserve. The white settlers were given two years to remove the encroachment. They had leased or taken forcible possession of these lands, which were mostly wild lands, some of them tilled and others not, and the consequence was that the Government, recognizing the right of the Indians to their reserve, forced every white settler to leave. That reserve has progressed since, but lately a very wealthy golf club was formed in Montreal, and leased part of the reserve for a golf link. The first thing done under this Act will be for the gentlemen to try and impress on the Government the necessity of buying out this land or forcing the Indians to leave Caughnawaga and move away. They have all been brought up in the province of Quebec. They are thoroughly familiar with the neighbourhood in which they live. Most of them were pilots on the river St. Lawrence. If you move them anywhere else you will make outcasts of them. There has been a tremendous pressure to get hold If we allow this reserve to be parcelled off, where would you locate these men? We have had another sinister experience with the Oka reserve. The Indians started a rebellion against the proprietor, who is supposed to be the chief of the Seminary of St. Sulpice. He got a concession of lands in the Muskoka region; part of the Indians, dissatisfied with conditions were moved there. What have been the consequences? The Indians, moved from the land where they were born, where their ancestors lived before them, and where their ancestors have been buried, come once or twice every year to visit the land of their youth. Their advice to those who remain behind is 'do not you leave your land; we have become outcasts.' Two-thirds of these Indians are wandering to-day throughout the United States either playing in circuses or engaged in some other vulgar calling. It is a question to me whether, in allowing this Bill to pass, these reserves in the province of Quebec, which we consider amongst us as an ornament to the province of Quebec, will not entirely disappear, and the last vestige of what was formerly a great Indian civilization will vanish altogether. Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-The hon. leader of the House thought this Bill did not apply to |